More trains in Blackburn to Hellifield route

[tbtc]

It's very simple, just ask Richard Branson to run the line.

I'm sure he'd love to run it on a "not for profit" basis, because let's face it, you'd struggle to make it profitable

 

[Toots]

There's certainly very little population between Clitheroe and Hellifield, but that's not really the reasoning behind the campaign to improve services. It's much more difficult to assess the potential for through services.

But through services for who Tim?.A small town like Clitheroe couldn't sustain through services to Glasgow,and Leeds is covered by the East Lancs line. As for Settle,there certainly aren't enough commuters into Manchester to warrant running a service with all the costs incurred.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's certainly very little population between Clitheroe and Hellifield.

Whilst Clitheroe has a population around the 22,000 mark, I agree with what you say above. Indeed, Hellifield itself only has a population of 1,060.

 

[Bill EWS]

Surely if the train is to run through to Scotland then Clithero and Hellifield are only a small part of what the overall useage might be! If the Aberdeen-Glasgow/Edinburgh trains only relied on the numbers using stations such as, say, Port Leathan and Laurencekirk then that service wouldn't look very good, on paper, either. It may be that higher numbers from larger places on the way could keep the service financially worthwhile!

 

[Toots]

The question is,which 'larger places' are you talking about Bill?.With the exception of Blackburn,and even then it would be of minimum benefit against one change and the far higher speeds of the WCML,there are no populations that large that haven't already got a direct link to Scotland that would gain by such a service being introduced.....

 

[Bill EWS]

Indeed, but it could be seen as a secondary or altenative route with the number of trains considered economical for that to be so, with enough trains too and from Blackburn to Hellifield to over the peak periods for that section. People will use services where they don't have to change.

I'm simply looking at ways that may make this route workable rather than the instant negative approach wich seems to be the norm these days. Obvioulsy, if the proposal for the route can't be made economical then it won't happen. However, we should be looking for every possible new rail services that give more choice and ease the road situation. There was a lot of naysayers over the Laurencekirk reopening but it has proved to be quite successful.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed, but it could be seen as a secondary or alternative route with the number of trains considered economical for that to be so, with enough trains too and from Blackburn to Hellifield to over the peak periods for that section. People will use services where they don't have to change.

Can anyone state how this route is officially technically described by the relevant railway authorities, in terms of its official strategic status an an accredited diversionary route.

 

[snail]

Indeed, but it could be seen as a secondary or altenative route with the number of trains considered economical for that to be so, with enough trains too and from Blackburn to Hellifield to over the peak periods for that section. People will use services where they don't have to change.

The only comparable routes I can think of are the LM vs. VT operations to London, but they serve large centres of population. Where are all these people that want to travel from Blackburn to Scotland direct? It would take considerably longer than changing at Preston. Sometimes the 'instant negative approach' is much more economic than spending thousands on a consultation exercise that is almost certainly bound to fail.

I can see some point in extending Clitheroe services to Hellifield if that is practical, as then you provide another link into Skipton and Leeds, but not going all the way to Scotland as a regular, viable service.

 

[philjo]

Provided the connections worked at Hellifield I would imagine there would be a demand for Skipton/Keighley passengers to go to Clitheroe/Blackburn/Bolton.

At weekends in particular there would be a demand to access Settle/Horton in Ribblesdale etc - the trains from Leeds tend to be well used so I don't see why any running from Manchester wouldn't be either. may only need 2-3 trains a day initially provided they connected properly at Hellifield or ran through via Settle.
Even during the week large ramblers groups use the S&C trains from Leeds.


Clitheroe passengers would gain more to be able to travel North as the present timetable isn't very helpful to get there from Preston. when I travelled there last year it required a 59 minute wait at Blackburn as the Clitheroe train left 1 mintue before the train from Blackpool North via Preston arrived.

 

[Wath Yard]

I don't know what day you travelled but Monday - Saturday there are 2 tph between Blackburn and Preston.

You don't provide any evidence of how many, or why, people want to travel from Keighley - Bolton, or any other combination of journey. Knowing the area very well, I would suggest there are very few who would want to use a very slow train, which is what it would be. The roads in the area are pretty good, and the M65 is almost unique for an English motorway in that there are never queues unless an accident has occurred.

 

[philjo]

It was a Sunday when I travelled last year from Blackpool to Clitheroe.

The M65 is not very useful if like me you don't have a car.

 

[Oswyntail]

.... the M65 is almost unique for an English motorway in that there are never queues unless an accident has occurred.

Sh, don't let on or everyone will want to use it!
I wonder if we don't need a different demand model for lines like this and SELRAP. If one only considered settlements above a particular population as relevant to rail links, then the sparsely populated hinterland is ignored. However, even there, there is potential for increased rail usage, though, by definition, it will involve road travel to the railhead.

 

[judethegreat]

How about maybe making the Manchester-Carlisle the local service along the S+C, then speeding up the Leeds ones, possibly extending them (Nottingham, Glasgow.. ??).
Don't talk about "is the demand there"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry... distracted while typing and message got sent by mistake...
Yeah - to assess demand, just look at the road network and the amount of cars using it. It depresses me to hear people say "use your car" on a rail forum, especially as someone who has never owned a car.

 

[snail]

It depresses me to hear people say "use your car" on a rail forum, especially as someone who has never owned a car.

I have a car. I use the train when I can but I don't expect anyone to build me a railway line just for one or two journeys I can't do any other way.

 

[judethegreat]

The point is this line is already in place, we're just talking about maximising it's use, possibly with one of the benefits being a few "new recruits" to trains generally, if they can use one in this instance (to get to the dales for a day out/get to manchester for work/shopping) they may be a bit more inclined to consider the train for other journeys.

 

[philjo]

In this case the line is already there. It just doesn't have any services on it (other than summer sundays northbound am and southbound pm)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

....possibly with one of the benefits being a few "new recruits" to trains generally, if they can use one in this instance (to get to the dales for a day out/get to Manchester for work/shopping) they may be a bit more inclined to consider the train for other journeys.

I wonder to which area you refer above when you say "get to Manchester for work/shopping", as this must be in the area of Hellifield and its environs, with Clitheroe already having direct train services to Manchester. Surely, with the existing rail transport links along the Hellifield line, Leeds is the most obvious direct choice for these people. Just do a comparison of the times that rail travel would take from that area to Leeds and then to Manchester, then look at what would be the cost of rail travel involved to those two destinations. Leeds has enough shopping facilities to cater for even the most fastidious tastes.

 

[philjo]

When I stayed in Settle last year a number of the other people in the hotel were needing to travel to Manchester airport but obviously had to change trains in Leeds to get there.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When I stayed in Settle last year a number of the other people in the hotel were needing to travel to Manchester airport but obviously had to change trains in Leeds to get there.

I cannot see that Manchester Airport will be served by any other places on the east side of the Pennines, other than the existing ones of Leeds, Dewsbury and Huddersfield, in that specific regional catchment area.

There have been very many comments made on this forum over the last twelve months about Manchester Airport as a destination for airline travellers from the eastern side of the Pennines for me to add further fire to the flames on that particular matter.

 

[Wath Yard]

In this case the line is already there. It just doesn't have any services on it (other than summer sundays northbound am and southbound pm)

There is already a line there, and there is also a reason why that line hasn't been used for passenger services for 50 years. I believe it was absolutely right to restart a service to Clitheroe. It isn't a huge or particularly important town but in my opinion it certainly deserved a service. However, I don't think there is any justification to extend that service to the north, and the line existing isn't a very convincing argument.

 

[snail]

The point is this line is already in place, we're just talking about maximising it's use.

Of course. Do you think I could get Network Rail to stop WCML trains at Garstang and Catterall? The line is there, all they need to do is rebuild the old station then I wouldn't have to travel by car from Preston.

 

[Oswyntail]

.... Leeds has enough shopping facilities to cater for even the most fastidious tastes.

Except if you wish to buy CDs of Classical music, or sheet music.:cry:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course. Do you think I could get Network Rail to stop WCML trains at Garstang and Catterall? The line is there, all they need to do is rebuild the old station then I wouldn't have to travel by car from Preston.

Quite, so it could possibly be cost effective. But one will never know because we only seem to estimate passenger numbers based on large settlements. Rural transport policy has been abandoned to the car.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Of course. Do you think I could get Network Rail to stop WCML trains at Garstang and Catterall? The line is there, all they need to do is rebuild the old station then I wouldn't have to travel by car from Preston.

Let us not go down that particular avenue, otherwise there will be postings appearing about stations reopening on the Copy Pit line to be served by the opportunities afforded by the Todmordon Chord project, closely followed by postings from forum members who reside in the communities at Luddendenfoot, Golcar and Longwood & Milnsbridge in West Yorkshire, all where existing lines exist.....

 

[Toots]

Can anyone state how this route is officially technically described by the relevant railway authorities, in terms of its official strategic status an an accredited diversionary route.

Well it's the Up and Down Branch line from Hellifield to Clitheroe to Network Rail,it's a diversionary route as far as Virgin are concerned and a route for the slower freight as far as Scottish freight traffic is concerned.It also works local freight to Newbiggin and Clitheroe,so take your pick....

 

[55018ballymoss]

Being one of the resident signallers at Hellifield, I am puzzled by the comment "It just needs a signal at the end of the platform."
The signalling is very limited as there is currently no signal to permit a shunt move to return to the Up platform from the Down platform, either shunting via the Branch, or Shipley Main. It is also not possible to start a passenger service from the Down platform towards the Branch due to a lack of facing point locks on either 47 point end, or 49 branch crossover. The upcoming renewal of the south end of Hellifield will not add these either.

Therefore, the only way to shunt a terminating branch train from the Down platform, is to send it empty to Settle Junction, crossover, and return along the Up Main to the Up platform. A move which would take around 15 minutes to complete.
On the plus side, we do have loops and a siding to accomodate a unit until it is required for the return working, and the signallers would like to be able to run more services along the branch, subject to the limits of the signalling, and availability of stock.

 

[Tomnick]

The signalling is very limited as there is currently no signal to permit a shunt move to return to the Up platform from the Down platform, either shunting via the Branch, or Shipley Main.

Thanks for confirming - as I mentioned in my earlier post, I wasn't sure if this move was possible. I'm guessing, from no more than a photo of the diagram, that it's possible to shunt from the Down platform towards either route on the Up, but not from there (44 or 56 signals?) back into the Up platform?

 

[Toots]

On the plus side, we do have loops and a siding to accomodate a unit until it is required for the return working, and the signallers would like to be able to run more services along the branch, subject to the limits of the signalling, and availability of stock.

You speak for yourself!!...seriously though where do you reckon we can get the passengers to fill the services,you've seen how patronage drops of on the Dales Rail at this time of year,can you imaging if we run them through winter?.....

 

[lancastrian]

1. Yes it would make sense to use use that line from Manchester/Blackburn area beyond Clitheroe to Hellifield and beyond. I have done that line a few times of Steam Charter services.

2. What is SELRAP?

I agree it would make complete sense to extend the Manchester to Clitheroe service through to at least Hellifield. The simplest way to reverse the trains would be to reopen the south facing bay platform. I believe that it might require digging out, but it would make great sense.

SELREP is an group which is campaigning to reopen the route between Colne & Skipton, which was close din 1970 for some daft reason. Some complete pillock in either the Government or British Rail thought it would save some small amount of money. You just try getting from East Lancashire to the Aire Valley or visa versa. It is a real pain by car, just getting through Colne to start with. Then you have roads which even under the national speed limit of 60 mph, it is impossible to attain, apart from the Skipton Bypass, but you have to slow down for the roundabouts.

The rest of the roads between Colne and the A59 roundabout have many speed restrictions though the various villages between Colne & Skipton, so reopening this route would make perfect sense. But for that very basic reason it will not be done quickly because politicians don't do common sense.

 

[yorksrob]

Whilst it might be well worth trying a few more regular Manchester - Settle - Carlisle services (in much the same way the service from Leeds into the area was grown), I personally think Skipton - Colne would do a lot more for local connectivity than the Hellifield route (even though the Hellifield route would be a lot cheaper to reopen for obvious reasons).

 

[Wath Yard]

You just try getting from East Lancashire to the Aire Valley or visa versa. It is a real pain by car, just getting through Colne to start with. Then you have roads which even under the national speed limit of 60 mph, it is impossible to attain, apart from the Skipton Bypass, but you have to slow down for the roundabouts.

I did try it; 5 days a week for nearly 5 years. I'm not being funny but if you can't attain 60 mph on any of those roads you should consider buying a faster car or attending a driver's refresher course.