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Hourly Train From Aberdeen to Newcastle

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Bevan Price

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Three trains per day that are operated by Northern from Carlisle and that you'd have to be foolish to use for travel between Glasgow and Newcastle when XC offer a better and quicker service via Edinburgh. I suspect that this service is more of an historical oddity than a serious attempt by Scotrail at offering Glasgow to the Newcastle services.

I think some of them are a hangover from the days of the former Newcastle to Stranraer services, which were rerouted to Glasgow, after passenger ferries from Stranraer to Ireland diminished then ceased.
 
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ainsworth74

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I think some of them are a hangover from the days of the former Newcastle to Stranraer services, which were rerouted to Glasgow, after passenger ferries from Stranraer to Ireland diminished then ceased.

That would make sense thinking about it. Though really I think it's time to put an end to them and split the service at Carlise as I don't think there is any need when there's a quicker direct XC service and I can't imagine there is much traffic for the ferries.
 

Waverley125

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the Forth Bridge is actually busier, as there's half-hourly services round the Fife Circle, plus plans to return trains to Leven. The big problem with adding services across the bridge is the stoppers. When you have 4tph running 'all shacks' between Waverley and Inverkeithing, that takes up a lot of paths, although wiring and the better acceleration of EMUs compared to the anaemia of the turbostars would ameliorate that.

You then also have hourly to Aberdeen (fast to Leuchars), hourly to Dundee (semi fast), hourly to Inverness (semi fast) and the two-hourly London express.

ATEOTD I think the best possible solution practicable would be for ICEC to get hold of some extra HSTs, and give Aberdeen an hourly service to York, alternating every hour between London and Leeds.
 

transmanche

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Though really I think it's time to put an end to them and split the service at Carlise as I don't think there is any need when there's a quicker direct XC service and I can't imagine there is much traffic for the ferries.
Why is there any need to split the service? What advantage will be gained from splitting it?

Like many other services, it's not designed for end-to-end journeys. But it provides useful opportunities for intermediate journeys (e.g. to/from Metrocentre) without needing to change at Carlisle.
 

tbtc

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That would make sense thinking about it. Though really I think it's time to put an end to them and split the service at Carlise as I don't think there is any need when there's a quicker direct XC service and I can't imagine there is much traffic for the ferries.

One benefit from a through service is that it gives Dumfries a through link to Newcastle (and the Metro Centre). You could argue that Whitehaven/ Workington (etc) are in more need of such a service to Tyneside, but I can at least see why it's continued.

At the moment since it's 156s on both side of the border it's fairly easy for FSR staff to "man" a Northern unit/ vice versa. However if one TOC gets different trains then this may change.
 

ainsworth74

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Like many other services, it's not designed for end-to-end journeys. But it provides useful opportunities for intermediate journeys (e.g. to/from Metrocentre) without needing to change at Carlisle.

How many people actually do intermediate journey's either side of Carlisle?
 

Rick1984

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Coming from kilmarnock this service is very useful and have used it all my life and continue to do so travelling to and from East Anglia (Spalding, Great Yarmouth(where I live now)). Also childhood holidays to york and scarborough.
 

sprinterguy

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Extending some of the XC services from Southampton/ Reading to Newcastle up to Aberdeen (which is what you are suggesting?) would hit the obvious problems of lack of suitable stock and lack of additional paths over the Forth Bridge.
I fear that this may be an overly simplistic analysis of the constraints of the Edinburgh – Aberdeen timetable, but if there are paths available to accommodate the sporadic East Coast services, in most cases at a fairly common number of minutes past the hour in both directions, then given the regular pattern of Scotrail services into Fife from Edinburgh each hour, then wouldn’t these paths be “free” in the hours that the East Coast services do not run?

The problem there being that the only trains that it would be possible to extend to Aberdeen would be the East Coast services that already run in these paths and terminate at Newcastle or Edinburgh, where I think that, if additional rolling stock could be sourced, then I would rather see the Edinburgh Crosscountry service extended to Aberdeen in the alternate hours that they do not run to Glasgow.
 

IanXC

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The rolling stock issue may resolve itself before too long. In addition to the 9 car bimodes for replacement of HSTs, EC are expected to receive 5 car electrics (not the Cambridge options-they're separate) and 5 car bi modes.

I think this is listed in the IEP section of the DfT website, will have a look later. From memory its 13, ~12 and ~12 daily in service diagrams expected in the contract.
 

sprinterguy

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The rolling stock issue may resolve itself before too long. In addition to the 9 car bimodes for replacement of HSTs, EC are expected to receive 5 car electrics (not the Cambridge options-they're separate) and 5 car bi modes.

I think this is listed in the IEP section of the DfT website, will have a look later. From memory its 13, ~12 and ~12 daily in service diagrams expected in the contract.
The numbers I have from the Hitachi press release of the confirmed rolling stock order is for 12 x 5-car electric trains, 10 x 5-car bi-mode trains and 13 x 9-car bi-mode trains in passenger service each weekday.

You have a very good point there, it would be a lot easier to introduce additional Aberdeen services (If the operator felt that they were in any way a good idea) as part of the East Coast franchise if the size of the IEP order, allowing for the splitting and joining of five carriage units at Edinburgh, could be tailored to accommodate such a service.
 

Waverley125

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Certainly, having used it plenty, there's a demand for an hourly long-form limited stop train to Aberdeen from Edinburgh, and, I'd imagine, from Glasgow, not currently provided by SR.
 

ainsworth74

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Haven't a clue. But in the meantime maybe you can answer the questions I posed earlier.

To my mind the obvious advantage is that it would increase the resilience of the service to disruption/cancellation. For example if something happens around Kilmarnock that leads to a cancellation then the Tyne Valley will lose a service to that cancellation. If it was split at Carlisle then the Tyne Valley would be unaffected by disruption up near Glasgow. The reverse is of course also true. There's also the point made earlier that it isn't guaranteed that Scotrail will continue to have 156s to use on this service (though with the scaling back of EGIP it seems likely that the situation won't change much).

Now we come back to my question to which you 'haven't a clue'. If there is strong demand for journey's either side of Carlisle then I'm happy that the advantage of extra resilience isn't worth the disruption it would cause to the users of the services. On the other hand if we're only talking about a few people then I don't think splitting the service would be much of a loss. So again I'm left asking, how many people use the service for journey's either side of Carlise? Without an answer to that question it isn't possible to say either way that the service is expendable or vital.

Anyway we're starting to wander quite a ways off topic ;)
 

Greenback

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There is obviously a benefit in linking together shorter services into one longer one where this is economic in terms of saving stock and staff in comparison to running the services separately.

Through journeys also provide more attractive travel opportunitesfor intermediate stations. Using my own station as an example, although ost journeys from Llanelli will be within south wales, it is undoubtedly a major advantage for rail thats ervices run through to Manchester, meaning that the experience is more competitive with road travel, both for convenience and overall journey time.

Thirty years ago it would have been 'Change at Swansea, Cardiff Central and Crewe', which must be off putting to at least some people contemplating such a journey! Also, to get furthe rafield you ar elooking at one change at Hereford, Shrewsbury, Crewe or Manchester, enabling places like Wolverhampon, Worcester, Leeds and Newxastle (even Glasgow) to be reached far more conveniently.

There is a trade off for those benefits. That comes in the form of knock on disruption. But in my view that is a price that is worth paying, particularly if connections would have to be held for late running evening services in any case.

Back to the original subject, and I can't see that there would be much of a benefit cost wise from linking the Aberdeen - Edinburgh services with an Edinburgh - Newcastle service. Pathing is too much of an issue, and the idea is complicated by the fact that two different TOC's are involved, though that in itself needn't be a fatal obstacle.
 

transmanche

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To my mind the obvious advantage is that it would increase the resilience of the service to disruption/cancellation. For example if something happens around Kilmarnock that leads to a cancellation then the Tyne Valley will lose a service to that cancellation. If it was split at Carlisle then the Tyne Valley would be unaffected by disruption up near Glasgow.
Sorry, that argument doesn't really stack up. If you follow that same logic there should be no direct Aberdeen-London services; because "If something happens around Dundee that leads to a cancellation, then the ECML will lose a service to that cancellation. If it was split at Edinburgh, then the ECML would be unaffected by disruption up near Aberdeen."
 

Rick1984

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Using 2x5 car trains and splitting them at edinburgh with one going to glasgow and one heading north would make sense. I think there is only one EC service to glasgow at the moment which is pretty appalling for those travelling from east england to glasgow.
 

ainsworth74

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Sorry, that argument doesn't really stack up.

Hence my further comment that if there is strong through demand then that demand clearly takes precedence over the advantages of splitting the service. There is plenty of demand on Aberdeen - London services that isn't just for stations between Aberdeen - Edinburgh and Edinburgh - London. So again, if there is reasonable demand for journey's through Carlisle rather than just Glasgow - Carlisle and Carlisle - Newcastle the service should continue, on the other hand if we're talking about very few people then I think splitting has some advantage.

So I'm left asking, again, what is the demand like on the Glasgow - Newcastle services for journey's through Carlisle?
 

transmanche

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So I'm left asking, again, what is the demand like on the Glasgow - Newcastle services for journey's through Carlisle?
Like I said, I have no idea - so I'm afraid you'll have to look it up.

Whatever the actual number of passengers, ScotRail and Northern obviously think it's worth their while running a joint service of three through trains per day. So what's the problem? It works and it's worked well for a long time!
 

bluenoxid

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Does Northern and Scotrail really get a choice over the service when you think about it? They have a contract and the route is there. Railways are full of inertia. You only have to look at the Parliamentary services.

Personally, I cannot see the point of the route either even though it offers some nice connections.
 

reb0118

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So I'm left asking, again, what is the demand like on the Glasgow - Newcastle services for journey's through Carlisle?

Like I said, I have no idea - so I'm afraid you'll have to look it up.

Whatever the actual number of passengers, ScotRail and Northern obviously think it's worth their while running a joint service of three through trains per day. So what's the problem? It works and it's worked well for a long time!

Yes, I concur. In fact I would like to see more local & semi fast cross border through services. It would be nice to have through trains from the GSW to the SAC & the CBC as well as the NEC as we do just now.

With regard to through journeys I know that it is popular from Kilmarnock & stations south thereof to the Metro Centre & Newcastle (not sure about to other intermediate stops like Haltwhistle & Hexham - although saying that, personally, I did make two journeys last year from Dumfries/Annan to Hexham/Haltwhistle on spec probably just because there was a through train).





GSW = Glasgow & South Western: SAC = Settle & Carlisle: CBC = Carlisle, Barrow, Carnforth aka Cumbrian Coast Line: NEC = Newcastle & Carlisle aka Tyne Valley Line.
 

transmanche

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Does Northern and Scotrail really get a choice over the service when you think about it? They have a contract and the route is there.
I don't think so as there used to be a similar Newcastle-Stranraer service, which no longer runs - presumably it was no longer viable/useful because the ferry service from Stranraer has ceased.

Personally, I cannot see the point of the route either even though it offers some nice connections.
Well that is the point of the service... in that it 'offers some nice connections'!
 

tbtc

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Does Northern and Scotrail really get a choice over the service when you think about it? They have a contract and the route is there. Railways are full of inertia. You only have to look at the Parliamentary services.

Personally, I cannot see the point of the route either even though it offers some nice connections.

Yup - the continuation of a service is no evidence of it being worth anyone's while - unless anyone honestly thinks there's demand for nine trains a day from Holyhead to Cardiff.

Getting back on topic, I'm afraid that I can't see any way of solving the demand for ECML services - until the line to Aberdeen is electrified (after which there's maybe scope for making London - Aberdeen bi-hourly or hourly)...

...unless anyone wants an hourly bi-mode?
 

DarloRich

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Aberdeen to Edinburgh is a busy route and so is Edinburgh to Newcastle the East Coast trains pick up quite alot of passengers going to Newcastle from Aberdeen. So why not have an hourly train going to Newcastle it could be seperate service or it could be an extension of the hourly Aberdeen to Edinburgh train. My first thoughts would be that it would be operated by East Coast but with Aberdeen to Edinburgh line not electrified it and lack of HST it would be unlikely to happen but what if Scotrail were to run it. What do you think ?

Scotrail already offer a train from Glasgow to Newcastle.

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight :roll:

Yes you are quite right Scotrail already offer a Newcastle to Glasgow service - via every shed in south west Scotland.

i am not even going to grace this with a sensible reply. I will simply use the following words:

Stock
Paths
Demand
Why
Capacity
Money

move along
 

calc7

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Using 2x5 car trains and splitting them at edinburgh with one going to glasgow and one heading north would make sense. I think there is only one EC service to glasgow at the moment which is pretty appalling for those travelling from east england to glasgow.

What is this obsession with direct trains? I can understand where there connection is hourly, say, and doesn't join up well with the incoming train. But there's so many trains from Edinburgh to Glasgow, surely you just get off the EC train and you'll be on another one in five minutes?!
 

transmanche

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What is this obsession with direct trains?
Here are a few reasons that spring to mind:
  • Dealing with luggage
  • Shepherding children
  • Not being very mobile
  • Worry of getting lost in an unfamiliar 'big station'
  • And very relevant in these days of overcrowded railways: not being able to get a seat
 

Waverley125

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wit regards to through services between the GSW & the S&C, I'd really like to see a Leeds-Glasgow through service, maybe run 2-hourly, calling at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Settle, Kirkby Stephen, Appleby, Carlisle, Dumfries & Kilmarnock.
 

OxtedL

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wit regards to through services between the GSW & the S&C, I'd really like to see a Leeds-Glasgow through service, maybe run 2-hourly, calling at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Settle, Kirkby Stephen, Appleby, Carlisle, Dumfries & Kilmarnock.

Dare I ask why?
 
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wit regards to through services between the GSW & the S&C, I'd really like to see a Leeds-Glasgow through service, maybe run 2-hourly, calling at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Settle, Kirkby Stephen, Appleby, Carlisle, Dumfries & Kilmarnock.

Wasn't that part of the long gone Harwich Boat Train Route in the early 1980s?
 
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