Cyclists and Northern Rail

[Cheds]

Cheds and Dad were on a train down the Cumbria coast this morning. There were 3 cyclists who werent allowed on the train, which was pretty quiet. Big argument, cyclists saying they'd asked about booking but were told just to turn up, train manager and driver involved saying that they were already full up with 2? cycles. Transport police called, ten minutes delay etc. before the train left.

Coming back...at least 9 cyclists on the (busier) train including 5/6 kids with BMX type machines, train manager helping to organise them a bit to get the things a bit out of the way etc.

So, why the difference?

 

[nedchester]

Cheds and Dad were on a train down the Cumbria coast this morning. There were 3 cyclists who werent allowed on the train, which was pretty quiet. Big argument, cyclists saying they'd asked about booking but were told just to turn up, train manager and driver involved saying that they were already full up with 2? cycles. Transport police called, ten minutes delay etc. before the train left.

Coming back...at least 9 cyclists on the (busier) train including 5/6 kids with BMX type machines, train manager helping to organise them a bit to get the things a bit out of the way etc.

So, why the difference?

Stroppy guard?!

To be honest I've always found Northern to be more than helpful with bikes trying to get as many on as possible. I suppose I can understand their being a problem if it was a single 153 though.......

 

[ainsworth74]

Out of curiosity was it the same class of train and the same length train? If the later train was a different class/length then it could be that there was simply more space for bikes on board. Alternatively the early crew could simply have felt that it was not safe having that many bikes on board whilst the later crew did.

 

[Anvil1984]

Also if 5/6 kids are involved we have to take them due to duty of care even if we've told them dozens of times that the policy is 2 per train

 

[yorkie]

So, why the difference?

Not all Northern services are operated by the same type of unit, some of which can safely accommodate many more than the official 2 per train, and some of which you struggle for a decent place to even put 2.

Guards do vary a lot. Most Northern guards are very accommodating.

(If there are any Northern guards on here operating in the Hull area tomorrow feel free to send me a PM!)

 

[Anvil1984]

I'm rest day tomorrow so not me.

Just to clarify the difference in units, there's two type of units on Cumbrian coast. You have the 156s with a massive open luggage space at one end so can probably fit quite a few bikes there plus if your careful a few in middle vestibules and on the opposite side of spectrum you have the one coach 153s where you have space for two bikes and that's it, you can't put them in the vestibules as your blocking driver / guard and driver access.There's also 1 142 diagram up there where you can get 4 at a push (but they have different layouts. But on some of those bikes also take up the wheelchair space which technically we shouldn't allow

 

[Cheds]

OK -facts in the first post to start with, now a couple of opinions.

Why not take reservations - at least then those with cycles know on way or another in advance and can plan round it. The 3 guys who werent allowed on were complaining about connections which they had come off/were making (or rather not...).

We thought the on train staff rather seemed to be enjoying the situation. Why was the driver involved?

The train coming back was the last one north from Seascale, which may have swayed the train manager in taking extra bikes.

Two car units, which is the 156, yes?

 

[ainsworth74]

We thought the on train staff rather seemed to be enjoying the situation. Why was the driver involved?

Whilst I can't comment on what the staff we're feeling, I doubt they were enjoying it. The crew are technically a team and if something that's going on is causing a delay it makes sense that the driver would go and help out the guard to try and rectify the situation. Either that or guard asked for their help.

The train coming back was the last one north from Seascale, which may have swayed the train manager in taking extra bikes.

Quite possibly.

Two car units, which is the 156, yes?

Yes but it could also be a doubled up 153 or a single 142...

For comparisons sake a 156, a 153 and a 142.

 

[185]

Be a 156 on the coast run probably.

Think I worked a Calder Valley train with about 7 on once, quite straightforward with a bit of juggling.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

youi should try working on the Chesters via Northwich, fine until we hit Delamere or Mouldsworth then there literally can be 20 bikes on the platform and you are in an Eastern 142 with no Bike Space. I will fit as many as I can on SAFELY but I have had to threaten people with calling the BTP when they refuse to listen, even if its kids Duty of care means them and NOT the Bikes, we are not a FOC lol

 

[Anvil1984]

Plus several unfolded pushchairs too I bet? And several people despite many seats being available in the main saloon deciding to tip down the long bench seats where the bikes could go and sit there when you need that space and you tipped it up for that specific reason

 

[cuccir]

It's hardly a secret that cyclists want to use the Cumbria Coast Line to get to the start of the Coast to Coast though, is it? Given obvious and predictable demand, introducing a reservation system (heck, you could charge £1 admin for it and I'm sure people would pay) would surely be a good idea if space is known to be limited?

I suggest writing to Northern Customer Services to highlight the problem. A cycling friend of mine has written to them before twice about taking bikes on the rail, once in praise and once in criticism, and both times he's received a decent response from them.

 

[BestWestern]

It's hardly a secret that cyclists want to use the Cumbria Coast Line to get to the start of the Coast to Coast though, is it? Given obvious and predictable demand, introducing a reservation system (heck, you could charge £1 admin for it and I'm sure people would pay) would surely be a good idea if space is known to be limited?

I suggest writing to Northern Customer Services to highlight the problem. A cycling friend of mine has written to them before twice about taking bikes on the rail, once in praise and once in criticism, and both times he's received a decent response from them.

I'm sorry to say that cycle reservations are a major nuisance and do little to help on a busy train. It means the Guard having to police each and every cyclist who tries to board at each and every stop, to ensure that there is remaining space for those who have booked further up the road. Aside from the delays this causes, there is then the obvious problem of what happens if somebody wishes to board with a cycle before the reserved pax, but is travelling beyond where the reservations start from. Do you convey them for half of their journey and hope they are still willing to get off when you reach station x, or do you refuse to carry them at all despite having an empty cycle bay at the time they are attempting to board? What happens if you load up with large amounts of luggage that end up occupying the cycle space before your reserved bikes are due to join, and so on. On a small but busy train it is very much a case of seeing what turns up at each stop and accommodating people as best you can. If you have lots of luggage but no bikes, then it makes sense to put the cases in your cycle bay, the same goes for buggies etc. Space is limited, and if there is none available then unfortunately it's a case of having to wait for the next one, with the previous Guard hopefully having a bit of foresight and perhaps giving control a bell to make the next train aware. The pressure to minimise delays to services means that a sensible, swift approach is needed, basically loading people and their belongings into a safe part of the train as quickly as you reasonably can. Trying juggle everybody who is boarding at every stop is not an option. Having a big chunk of space on the train 'reserved' for people who may only be joining half way through the journey is, I'm afraid, not a sensible way of doing things.

It's no secret that taking bikes on trains can be a challenge, and until we have the investment in extra capacity that is so badly needed in many places, the situation is unlikely to change

 

[krisk]

Two bikes per train, why should it carry more.

 

[Cheds]

Interesting responses and more than one opinion!

Thank you to Ainsworth for the layouts - yes, I think 156 but these are useful to me.

As to Krisk: 'Two bikes per train, why should it carry more'. OK, but let people reserve in advance, surely. Then if it's full, you can book a different train.

And BesWestern: all the comments made about bikes (which may be fair enough) could equally be applied to luggage, pushchairs or even wheel chairs. I don't know - does any train company limit the amount of luggage on a train or refuse to carry pushchairs? Can wheelchairs be booked in advance?

It's just that observing the situation yesterday of the 3 guys being refused makes you think there must be a better way of dealing with bikes. And yes, Ainsworth, this driver was indeed enjoying it! Though I hasten to add my general opinion of Carlisle rail staff is high, particularly Virgin staff, so credit where it's due.

Cheers

 

[Drsatan]

Interesting responses and more than one opinion!


And BesWestern: all the comments made about bikes (which may be fair enough) could equally be applied to luggage, pushchairs or even wheel chairs. I don't know - does any train company limit the amount of luggage on a train or refuse to carry pushchairs? Can wheelchairs be booked in advance?

It's just that observing the situation yesterday of the 3 guys being refused makes you think there must be a better way of dealing with bikes. And yes, Ainsworth, this driver was indeed enjoying it! Though I hasten to add my general opinion of Carlisle rail staff is high, particularly Virgin staff, so credit where it's due.

Cheers

Section 49 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC) state the following

49. Restrictions
Any Train Company may (notwithstanding the terms set out in Conditions 46 to 48 and
Appendix B) refuse to accept an item of luggage, an article, an animal or a cycle if, in the
opinion of its staff:
(a) it may cause injury, inconvenience or a nuisance or it may cause damage to
property;
(b) there is not enough room for it;
(c) the loading or unloading may cause delay to trains; or
(d) it is not carried or packaged in a suitable manner.

So, any guard would have the right to refuse anyone with a bike or lots of luggage if there wasn't enough room. Appendix B clarifies this, saying:

A Train Company may refuse to accept Luggage or Articles in passenger
accommodation if any of the following apply:
• the restrictions listed in Condition 49 apply;
• the item would obstruct doorways, gangways or corridors;
• the dimensions of the item exceed 100 x 100 x 100 cm; or
• in the opinion of the Train Company’s staff, the item is only suitable to be
conveyed in a luggage van.

 

[The Ham]

The ATOC has just produced a document to aid train operators and make it easier for people to combine cycling with rail travel:
http://cycle-rail.co.uk/hq-cy/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ATOC-Toolkit-low-res-single.pdf

It is not of much help when it comes to carrying cycles on trains. I don't know where the idea that at one ends of a train journy the cyclist will either not need a cycle or will hire one comes from, but it is not very helpful. Espicially for stations which serve rural locations or small towns and/or where bus travel is sketchy or doesn't go where the user needs it to.

Intrestingly it suggests (P39), that cycle parking at a staion should accomidate all the cycles recorded plus 50% for future demand and that once cycle parking reaches 80% full a further 20% be added.

Therefore, it could be very helpful if you do want to park your cycle at the station and there are insufficant spaces to point this out to the relevent TOC when you write to them asking for more cycle spaces.

 

[158801]

Cycle reservations should be compulsory.

No reservation = no bike

That would cut down all the problems of can I fit a bike on to the next station, will they get off, can I can 10 on....

 

[Bevan Price]

Cycle reservations should be compulsory.

No reservation = no bike

That would cut down all the problems of can I fit a bike on to the next station, will they get off, can I can 10 on....

It wouldn't have solved all the problems if any cyclists had wanted to join the train on my last two trips from Derby to Matlock - 100+ passengers on a single class 153 on both occasions.......I can imagine the response from the passengers if the guard had asked some of them to get off the train to make space for any bikes.

 

[yorkie]

Two bikes per train, why should it carry more.

Most trains can, and as for why... because the demand is there, and most trains are reasonably well designed!

Travelled with Northern & TPE today, no problems and friendly staff on all trains The trains we got were York-Howden (3 bikes); Beverley-Cottingham (5 bikes 158+153 combo); Cottingham-Hull (2 bikes), Hull-South Milford (2 bikes) & Sherburn to York (2 bikes, and only 5 passengers in total...well 6 if you count the fact someone got off and someone else got on at Church Fenton!).

If Northern & TPE were not as relaxed about taking bikes on trains as they are, then they would not have had our custom today - it's that simple.

It wouldn't have solved all the problems if any cyclists had wanted to join the train on my last two trips from Derby to Matlock - 100+ passengers on a single class 153 on both occasions.......I can imagine the response from the passengers if the guard had asked some of them to get off the train to make space for any bikes.

I would be very surprised if a train to Matlock did not have any bikes on it on a nice day! I think that when capacity problems arise on local services priority should be given to passengers connecting onto longer distance services.

 

[Waverley125]

been using Northern a lot recently to do the return leg of many exploratory rides from Leeds, going from Bradford, Hebden Bridge, Skipton, Castleford and Shipley into Leeds. No problems so far, except that the cycle space on the 3-car 158 from Hebden Bridge yesterday was not marked on the outside of the train, and awkwardness from other people on the 144 from Cas.

 

[BestWestern]

Interesting responses and more than one opinion!

BesTWestern: all the comments made about bikes (which may be fair enough) could equally be applied to luggage, pushchairs or even wheel chairs. I don't know - does any train company limit the amount of luggage on a train or refuse to carry pushchairs? Can wheelchairs be booked in advance?

Cheers

Well yes, but the big differences are that luggage stowage is usually pretty flexible, so with some shuffling about and re-arranging you can usually fit things in somewhere, and with buggies you can always offer the choice of folding it up or waiting for another service. Cycles are by far the largest and most inflexible item usually carried on board, and they can only be stored safely in a certain way and a certain part of the train.

Wheelchairs can be booked in advance, and indeed TOCs always suggest that passengers do this wherever possible, though it isn't compulsory. The difference here of course is that there are legal issues around the requirement to convey disabled passengers, which don't apply to cycles.

 

[northwichcat]

Not all Northern services are operated by the same type of unit, some of which can safely accommodate many more than the official 2 per train, and some of which you struggle for a decent place to even put 2.

Guards do vary a lot. Most Northern guards are very accommodating.

In their printed timetables Northern say they operate a 2 bike per train policy. However, technically that means if a service is operated by 2x153s then 4 bikes are permitted while if it's 1x156 then 2 bikes are permitted.

Northern have issued some cycle priority passes to scholars. This, however, doesn't guarantee their bikes a place on the train but means they have priority over other people boarding the same train with bikes.

I've seen Northern guards turn a blind eye to bikes left in spaces marked as wheelchair spaces and instructing passengers to not leave bikes or luggage there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

youi should try working on the Chesters via Northwich, fine until we hit Delamere or Mouldsworth then there literally can be 20 bikes on the platform and you are in an Eastern 142 with no Bike Space. I will fit as many as I can on SAFELY but I have had to threaten people with calling the BTP when they refuse to listen, even if its kids Duty of care means them and NOT the Bikes, we are not a FOC lol

16:17 Manchester-Chester on Saturday had 1 bike already on board on arrival at Knutsford. On the platform five people were wanting to board with bikes, train was an ex-FNW Pacer probably would have had around 80 on board after Knutsford. The train had an additional ticket inspector on board who was helping the guard direct passengers with bikes to put them in appropriate places. I was alighting at Knutsford so didn't wait around to see if all the bikes got loaded on or not.

One day I saw 10 kids (all travelling together) wanting to board with bikes at Navigation Road. The guard called them to the back of the train and said they couldn't all board.

 

[Barclay]

Most bikes these days have quick-release saddles and wheels. I do a lot of cycle touring around the country, and carry a couple of large bin liners with me. If it's a busy service or a short train where I feel a bike might cause problems, I take the wheels and saddle/seatpost off and put them in a bin liner and then put the frame in a separate bag. My deralieur is protected by a metal guard. It's a bit of a faff, but means the bike it easier to store on board and can fit in a luggage space. It's even worked on TGV services in France, which are notorious for not accepting bikes.

The bin liners take up no room to carry on the bike when cycle touring. I think there's a gap in the market for a 'disposable bike bag' designed for this purpose. Normal bike bags are too bulky and heavy to carry with you on a bike.

 

[soil]

Cycle reservations should be compulsory.

No reservation = no bike

That would cut down all the problems of can I fit a bike on to the next station, will they get off, can I can 10 on....

It would also cut down on passengers.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Why not take reservations - at least then those with cycles know on way or another in advance and can plan round it....

You would know one way or the other if you had booked it yes, but you'd but none the wiser or worse off if you didn't. If you went down the 100% reservation route, given that most reservations close two hours before the train departs it's origin, missing a train for any reason could result in having to wait more than two hours for a train that you could take your bike on!

....The 3 guys who werent allowed on were complaining about connections which they had come off/were making (or rather not...)....

One wonders how the conversation would have gone if the guard had said they could go half way with their bikes, but at that point the cycle places were reserved, so they'd have to remove their bikes from the train at that point!

In their printed timetables Northern say they operate a 2 bike per train policy. However, technically that means if a service is operated by 2x153s then 4 bikes are permitted while if it's 1x156 then 2 bikes are permitted......

It says per train, not per unit. That means if it is 1x156 there can be two cycles and if it is 2x153 there can be two cycles.

 

[northwichcat]

It says per train, not per unit. That means if it is 1x156 there can be two cycles and if it is 2x153 there can be two cycles.

To the average passenger the term 'unit' is not common jargon and many Northern guards do say front train and rear train to passengers when it's a doubled up formation.

By your argument if a TPE Edinburgh-Manchester Airport with 1 bike on board service picked up a Windermere portion at Preston with 2 bikes on board then one would need to be thrown off at Preston unless the guard showed discretion.

 

[Monty]

Cheds and Dad were on a train down the Cumbria coast this morning. There were 3 cyclists who werent allowed on the train, which was pretty quiet. Big argument, cyclists saying they'd asked about booking but were told just to turn up, train manager and driver involved saying that they were already full up with 2? cycles. Transport police called, ten minutes delay etc. before the train left.

Coming back...at least 9 cyclists on the (busier) train including 5/6 kids with BMX type machines, train manager helping to organise them a bit to get the things a bit out of the way etc.

So, why the difference?

Legally speaking a train has a set limit of cycles and wheelchairs it is allowed to convey, I'm unsure of the class of train you were on so I can't comment on it's specific limits. However it may have been a case that the guard on your train on the way out was following the letter of the law, and the one on the way back had decided to use some discretion and allow more cycle users on his train.

Mark my words though, had there been an incident on the latter train involving those bicycles. The guard would have gotten it in the neck if it was known that he himself had knowingly allowed more cycles to be loaded than the set limit.

Hope this helps.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The main problem with mandatory reservations in my eyes is that on many services, what units turn up is a lottery.
Not sure if it is the same up north, but on a lot of FGW's local services here in the west, then there is no way to tell what will turn up. It could be a 153, a 150, a 158 or any mix of them. How on earth would you do a reservation system for that?

 

[pinkpanther]

I can't offer any solutions to the issues raised above*, but I would observe that if you are travelling long distance with bikes and multiple connections on (likely) unflexible advance tickets, this can be a real nightmare.

Everytime my partner and I travel this way on a cycling holiday, the fear of it all going horribly wrong on one of the "unreservable" legs is quite palpable. It quite takes the fun out of travelling, and we're usually very relieved when it's all over.

* Other than providing adequate stock to meet the demand, which we all know isn't going to happen under the current franchising/procurement system.