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First win Intercity West Coast franchise

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F Great Eastern

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The FGE one was different on a few levels, they stated they were disappointed and then went to court, without having to resort to crying foul and spreading misinformation. They went about the business quietly and professionally. When they saw the reasons they did not get the bid they accepted them and learnt from it.
 
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dosxuk

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The FGE one was different on a few levels, they stated they were disappointed and then went to court, without having to resort to crying foul and spreading misinformation. They went about the business quietly and professionally. When they saw the reasons they did not get the bid they accepted them and learnt from it.

By buying one of the companies which did get through pre-qualification... And losing again.
 

RPI

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And would I be right in saying that FirstGroup has not failed to win a franchise it has bid for since then (four in a row - ICWC would be the fifth)?
Meanwhile the then GA winner (NX) lost all its subsequent bids except EC which it handed back.

First bid for XC but didn't get it.
 

HH

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First bid for XC but didn't get it.

Yes, they decided they didn't particularly want it and put a bid in "to keep other bidders honest". Dean Finch pretty much decided they were only going to win later franchises at the right price.
 

EM2

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Have there been any marked improvements at any of the 'ten worst stations' from November 2009 that are operated by VT?
I was at CLJ on Saturday and it was unrecognisable from the late '80s, how have Crewe etc. got on?
 

6Gman

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Have there been any marked improvements at any of the 'ten worst stations' from November 2009 that are operated by VT?
I was at CLJ on Saturday and it was unrecognisable from the late '80s, how have Crewe etc. got on?

Slowly! Bit of roofpatching here (but not there); vehicular access still poor; car parking poor; the toilets were 'improved' by being reduced in size etc etc

Not impressed.
 

crewmeal

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Branson always cries foul when he's beaten. When BA and Iberia merged he cried foul. When BA took over BMI he cried foul. Now this. He'd do better to concentrate on Virgin Atlantic before someone else does.
 

emoaconr

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Have there been any marked improvements at any of the 'ten worst stations' from November 2009 that are operated by VT?
I was at CLJ on Saturday and it was unrecognisable from the late '80s, how have Crewe etc. got on?

Crewe is an example that really saddens me when I see it.
It could potentially be a stunning station, its not 60s slap-dash brutalist concrete like many of the major stations on the WCML (e.g. Stafford, New Street, Euston). I do wonder if it would have fared any better under another TOC, but then again I always wonder that VT have never had the opportunity/incentive to do anything major with it simply because it is so extremely busy.

Warrington Bank Quay and Stockport are other examples that are iconically VT-operated; very reminicent of stations under BR's control in the early 90s.
 

swt_passenger

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...but then again I always wonder that VT have never had the opportunity/incentive to do anything major with it simply because it is so extremely busy.

Wasn't VT's responsibility to do anything major really, but the new franchises change all that, with the TOCs having full repairing leases in future. Which of course means that comparisons between the new TOC and VT will always be flawed, because responsibility will be different.

However, a station being 'busy' isn't necessarily an obstacle to massive amounts of work - Clapham Jn has already been quoted as a good example of fairly major changes which were done whilst remaining in normal use.
 

bILLOO

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Branson always cries foul when he's beaten. When BA and Iberia merged he cried foul. When BA took over BMI he cried foul. Now this. He'd do better to concentrate on Virgin Atlantic before someone else does.

Having flown on Virgin Atlantic, the interior reminded me of a Pendolino - IE... it was already quite worn and dated; I was quite unimpressed considering the "Virgin Brand".
 

David10

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And would I be right in saying that FirstGroup has not failed to win a franchise it has bid for since then (four in a row - ICWC would be the fifth)?
No since 2004 First have unsuccessfully bid for Cross Country, East Coast (twice), East Midlands, Northern, South Eastern and South West Trains. And then there were others it didn't make the shortlist for, it was definitely interested in Greater Anglia.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Wasn't VT's responsibility to do anything major really, but the new franchises change all that, with the TOCs having full repairing leases in future. Which of course means that comparisons between the new TOC and VT will always be flawed, because responsibility will be different.

Crewe had the misfortune of potentially being completely replaced on a different site, until they recently decided to stay put after all.
NR/VT were never going to spend a lot while planning blight was on.
It's been tarted up a bit, but still remains very shabby for a major interchange.
A bit like Peterborough, I think.

At Warrington and Wigan a fortune has recently been spent on rebuilding the platforms, but peanuts on the buildings. Warrington also has the most expensive and worst coffee in the universe.
Stockport has its new entrance and P0, but the main platforms are grubby.
But no worse than Oxford Road, which has probably the worst revenue/quality ratio in the north-west (just to indicate it's not necessarily the TOC's fault).

Lancaster is the best-preserved of the old VT stations.
 

emoaconr

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Wasn't VT's responsibility to do anything major really, but the new franchises change all that, with the TOCs having full repairing leases in future. Which of course means that comparisons between the new TOC and VT will always be flawed, because responsibility will be different.

However, a station being 'busy' isn't necessarily an obstacle to massive amounts of work - Clapham Jn has already been quoted as a good example of fairly major changes which were done whilst remaining in normal use.
I also don't really think that VT were ever interested in managing stations; the way the CrossCountry franchise is structured with absolutely no station operations whatsoever I think is how Virgin would have wanted it throughout. VT's stations are just like stepping back into a BR station in the mid 1990s.

I'm neither pro nor against VT, but their station management is a thing that very soon needs to be addresed.
 

jon0844

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Try flying to Vegas on Virgin. The interior is probably the same as when Virgin Atlantic first launched!

Tokyo Upper Class was nice though.
 

WelshBluebird

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Yes and no. I'll grant you, at least publicly, they have not complained about the details of the franchise system during this bid - but they are not allowed to.

However, they have complained and spoke out publicly when the ECML franchise failed under National Express in 2009 about the system.

And yet, if they had won the bid for the WCML this time around, they would not be complaining at all. That is pretty much a fact. They are only complaining because they lost!

Also, despite all the posts about Virgin mounting a legal challenge, there has not been anything I have read that actually say on what grounds they are challenging the decision on. It still seems to me as if it is sour grapes, and nothing more.
 

jon0844

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With public opinion on their side, sour grapes might just form part of their evidence, along with exhibit A; a selection of toys, slightly damaged from a fall of about 60cm.
 

Class 33

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I didn't use Virgin Trains West Coast Mainline services all that much over the years. But did use their Cross Country services a fair number of times. Have good memories of those good ol' days when these routes were the stamping ground of the Class 47's and unrefurbished Valenta engine'd HST's. The Cross Country services went downhill when Arriva took over.

I was initially dissapointed when it was announced First had won the contract to take over the West Coast Mainline services. I would have wanted Virgin Trains to stay on. I was saddened that the era of Virgin Trains would be coming to an end this year. I have nothing against First, but I would have preferred Virgin Trains to carry on. HOWEVER, with Richard Branson now throwing his toys out of his pram, saying First shouldn't have won it, starting legal action, etc, I am very unimpressed. First won it fair and square. So Richard should step down gracefully and admit defeat. If they do go ahead with this legal action then I hope they lose. My respect for Virgin Trains and Richard Branson has gone now.

Reading some of the comments on First Great Western's Facebook page I actually feel very sorry for them. Comments like "There's no way you're getting your hands on our West Coast Mainline", "We don't want you running the West Coast Mainline", "Be prepared for protests... we're not going to let you get your incompetent hands on the West Coast line without a fight.", etc, etc. A lot of these people really don't have a clue. A lot of them think they're going to get an abysmally bad service come December. Some people even think all the existing Virgin trains will all go, and First will put all their HST's and DMU's on these services!!!
 

jon0844

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Most people do think a company just has a warehouse full of trains ready to go.

So First naturally has only old trains, while Virgin had all new ones - all hand crafted by Sir Richard himself no doubt. Now they've lost the route, I guess they think Virgin will be stuck with them then? After all, First is already dusting off its slam door trains as we speak.

Maybe if these people stopped to think what usually happens if you have a franchise. Perhaps just looking in a dictionary or even Wikipedia?
 

Metroland

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First won it fair and square. So Richard should step down gracefully and admit defeat.

According to the Virgin claim:

Transport Secretary Justine Greening “acted unlawfully”, “irrationally” and in contravention of EU law when she awarded the £13.3bn West Coast rail contract to FirstGroup, Virgin Rail has claimed.

Virgin Rail’s legal challenge over the franchise bid focuses on three main alleged failings by Ms Greening, who it claims “breached her obligations of equal treatment, transparency and her duties to act consistently and rationally”.

Virgin Rail, which is 51pc owned by Sir Richard Branson and 49pc by Stagecoach, launched its judicial review on Tuesday, delaying the planned signing of the West Coast contract.

Its claim alleges Ms Greening departed from “the criteria set out in the invitation to tender” document and that she should have demanded more than three times the £190m “shareholder loan” FirstGroup is providing against the risk it fails to honour the contract.

The losing bidder, which has run the London-Scotland service for 15 years, also claims Ms Greening broke EU law in her refusal to explain her decision.

The claim, brought by Virgin Rail’s lawyer Herbert Smith, contends that, contrary to the tender document, Ms Greening failed to use a promised “risk adjusted view of the premium offered by the bidder”.

“On the basis of information presently available, there is no evidence that the Secretary of State undertook the relevant analysis,” the claim states.

FirstGroup offered an extra £2.3bn cash over the life of the contract, including a 20-month extension until the end of 2028, based on forecast annual revenue growth of 10.4pc versus Virgin Rail’s 8.5pc. However, most of FirstGroup’s payments are loaded to the contract’s end, increasing the risk over whether they will ever be made – and meaning Virgin Rail’s bid is largely better for the taxpayer until 2022.

Virgin Rail claims Ms Greening ignored the “considerations that she has confirmed were relevant to the decision, and has, in any event, acted unreasonably and/or committed a manifest error in her treatment of the FirstGroup bid”.

Virgin Rail also claims that if Ms Greening had assessed FirstGroup’s shareholder loan using the “same methodology” she applied to Virgin Rail’s, “she could not but have concluded that FirstGroup was required to provide a shareholder loan facility of at least £600m”.

It argues that Ms Greening unfairly “assessed FirstGroup’s bid by reference to a much less exacting standard of risk-mitigation... and has done so without any explanation or justification”.

Virgin Rail also points out that since Ms Greening announced her decision on Aug 15, she has “repeatedly” refused to answer its questions on why it lost a bid that cost the company £14m. Quoting EU case law, the claim points out that a contracting authority is required to provide “an adequate statement of reasons to unsuccessful tenderers”.

A Department for Transport spokesman said: “We will fight these claims robustly and show clearly that these allegations by Virgin and their business partners Stagecoach are ill-founded and misconceived. We expect to sign the contract soon.

FirstGroup reiterated that it had “every confidence in the DfT’s process which is rigorous, detailed and fair”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...Secretary-acted-unlawfully-claims-Virgin.html
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And yet, if they had won the bid for the WCML this time around, they would not be complaining at all. That is pretty much a fact. They are only complaining because they lost!

That's quite possible

Also, despite all the posts about Virgin mounting a legal challenge, there has not been anything I have read that actually say on what grounds they are challenging the decision on. It still seems to me as if it is sour grapes, and nothing more.

See above.
 

Statto

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Most people do think a company just has a warehouse full of trains ready to go.

So First naturally has only old trains, while Virgin had all new ones - all hand crafted by Sir Richard himself no doubt. Now they've lost the route, I guess they think Virgin will be stuck with them then? After all, First is already dusting off its slam door trains as we speak.

Maybe if these people stopped to think what usually happens if you have a franchise. Perhaps just looking in a dictionary or even Wikipedia?

Indeed some of the misinformation & scaremongering beggars belief, TOCs don't own any Trains they Lease them, the Pendo's WILL still be operating on the WCML in 5 years time, but in a different livery, no different to the ECML, which has the same trains running on that line as 10 years ago but in a different livery than they were in 10 years ago.
 
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Reading that i wouldn't rule out a judge at least allowing a review to go ahead, despite Virgin not covering themselves in glory I can't argue with the fact that £500-600m sounds about right for the share holder loan to be at.
 

cjmillsnun

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Indeed some of the misinformation & scaremongering beggars belief, TOCs don't own any Trains they Lease them, the Pendo's WILL still be operating on the WCML in 5 years time, but in a different livery, no different to the ECML, which has the same trains running on that line as 10 years ago but in a different livery than they were in 10 years ago.

A difference (that may incorrectly change the public perception) is that the trains on the ECML were originally BR rolling stock whereas the Pendos were new to VT. They may be under the impression the VT bought the trains. Of course those familiar with the way the system works know differently.

Also First DO own some of their HSTs
 

Wath Yard

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Reading some of the comments on First Great Western's Facebook page I actually feel very sorry for them. Comments like "There's no way you're getting your hands on our West Coast Mainline", "We don't want you running the West Coast Mainline", "Be prepared for protests... we're not going to let you get your incompetent hands on the West Coast line without a fight.", etc, etc. A lot of these people really don't have a clue. A lot of them think they're going to get an abysmally bad service come December. Some people even think all the existing Virgin trains will all go, and First will put all their HST's and DMU's on these services!!!

I wouldn't worry too much about FirstGroup's management - they're big boys. Remember the franchise doesn't start until December and all these people will have moved on to be outraged by at least 3 other things by then, or forgotten all about it after seeing a cat chasing a squirrel.
 

ainsworth74

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I wouldn't worry too much about FirstGroup's management - they're big boys.

I'm not worried about FirstGroup's management, but I am a bit worried about the poor souls that have to man their social media outlets!
 

simonmpoulton

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It's about time the operator of WCML got changed but clearly Mr Branson thinks it should have been awarded to him forever. He'd be far better on focussing his efforts into winning the ECML franchise - after NatEx and GNER I think some Virgin treatment would do well.
 

snail

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t Warrington and Wigan a fortune has recently been spent on rebuilding the platforms, but peanuts on the buildings.
Don't forget the shiny new multi storey car park at Wigan. Nothing to do with Virgin raking in extra cash from customers of course.
 

HH

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Don't forget the shiny new multi storey car park at Wigan. Nothing to do with Virgin raking in extra cash from customers of course.

AFAIK the Car Parks were paid for by NR.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That actually looks quite a good claim at first sight. It's been crouched in the all the right legal terms. And at heart I've been saying that the additional amount DfT asked for was way too low. IMO the VT amount was also too low! I would have asked for an amount equal to their total EBIT in both cases. That would mean (sort of), "walk away and you make no profit".

I wonder if tricky Dicky has considered that. IF VT get asked for £500m next time will he be so keen?
 

WatcherZero

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AFAIK the Car Parks were paid for by NR.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Joint program setup between Virgin and Network Rail with the work carried out by Balfour Beatty, £90m spent by NR on 17 Virgin station car parks on the WCML which Virgin repays over time through higher station leasing charges. Proposal and scope of works originated from Virgin as far as I know. Virgin couldnt do the work directly as the franchise prevents them from directly acquiring assets that their successor would be responsible for. I believe the repayment time was 3 years (end date of the franchise) but I may be wrong.
 
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