Should any dog be allowed on any train?

[northwichcat]

Reading this incident:

POLICE have re-issued an appeal after a woman was bitten by a dog on a train between Hartford and Crewe.

British Transport Police (BTP) are appealilng for information after the incident, which happened at 4pm on May 29 on board the London Midland service from Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street.

The victim, a 43-year-old woman from the West Midlands, was on the train with her dog, when they were attacked by a small terrier belonging to another passenger who boarded the train at Hartford.

PC Mel Dodd, investigating for the BTP, said: “We originally issued this appeal a few weeks ago, but sadly have been unable to trace the person responsible.

“As a result of the incident the woman suffered a bite to her left leg whilst her dog, a West Highland Terrier, suffered several bite wounds and received treatment at the vets.

“The attack was sudden and frenzied and left the woman, her dog, and other rail passengers extremely shaken.”

PC Dodd added: “I am now calling on anyone with information about the incident to come forward.

http://www.northwichguardian.co.uk/news/9886851.Police_appeal_after_dog_bite_on_train/?ref=mr

Has made by think should we allow any type of dog on any train? I personally don't think dogs would be well suited to busy regional or Intercity trains (where the owner can't easily take them off if they start getting worked up.) Then certain types of dog being on the train could make other passengers uncomfortable even if they aren't been aggressive - if a group of teenagers board with 6 Rottweilers I can't see other passengers feeling too comfortable even if the Rottweilers don't cause any problems.

 

[YorkshireBear]

When i boarded a train with a german shepherd people were very wary. The fact that she just sat there panting and trying to get me to stroke her didnt seem to convince any of them she safe. A few people came over and stroked her but a few complained to the conductor. Who just said you will stay at back of train won't you, a few seem a bit put off cos shes like a police dog. He wasn't bothered he was all over her. Shes well trained as well so she just sat/layed there. She didnt seem to like laying on the floor when we went over junctions though!

I think it should be that the conductor has the right to ask a dog and their ownder to leave the train if they are being agressive etc.

 

[rdwarr]

Bit like saying if a person is assaulted by another person then we should ban all people from trains. You have to take each individual case as it comes.

 

[northwichcat]

I think it should be that the conductor has the right to ask a dog and their ownder to leave the train if they are being agressive etc.

That's really why I questioned regional and Intercity trains where the next stop might be 30 or more minutes away so to get the dog off would require an unscheduled stop. However, also if it's an air conditioned train where it fails and there aren't opening windows as backup then it might affect the both dog's mood and health if he/she has to remain on the train.

 

[oversteer]

Well, at least you know the dog won't be the one opening doors and self-evacuating onto the track.

 

[WestCoast]

The problem is the owners and the control and common sense they exercise (or not). I note that this case involved a terrier, possibly another Westie. Being a dog owner myself, I can say too many small dogs are yappy, aggressive and spoiled by their owners. It doesn't usually come to a bite though.

My Border Terrier is well trained and seems to like trains - she will quite happily stay out of the way and not bother anyone. Less trouble than a piece of luggage!

She does like people (especially kids), but hates yappy terriers (usually Yorkies or Westies).

 

[Oswyntail]

All animals are under stress when travelling by train, and this will inevitably increase levels of aggression. Most are caged, which, though unpleasant for them, makes them and their environment, safe. Dogs, however, are loosely controlled, and incidents like the one described can flare up before even the most responsible owner can assert authority. I am very wary of dogs, having been bitten on several occasions, including by specimens who "are only being friendly" or "wouldn't hurt anything" - probably reacting to my own timidity, I realise. So i would like to see stricter, enforced, controls on dogs on trains. I would suggest that all dogs should be muzzled, regardless of size or temperament, and kept on a leash at all times. I would also suggest that they should be restricted to seats close to vestibules or door areas, so that they can be removed from contact with other passengers quickly if necessary. And, yes, I would include Guide Dogs in this, I'm afraid.

 

[bnm]

Dogs are only as good as the training and attitude of their owner. My last dog, Jess - a Staffie, was introduced to trains at a very early age and would usually just curl up and fall asleep for the journey.

Only one time did she cause a problem and that was entirely my fault. I spilt coffee (fortunately not too hot) on her and she took off like, er, a scolded cat slipping her harness and leaving my holding an empty coffee cup and equally empty leash. She managed to get through 4 carriages on the HST with me in hot pursuit before someone manage to garb her and hold her!

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Perhaps this thread should re-titled: Should anyone be allowed on trains? Attacks by humans on humans happen on trains so perhaps they should be caged or muzzled.

Worried passenger to Conducter: 'I don't like the look of that bloke over there'.

Conducter: 'What seems to be the problem?'

Worried passenger: 'He's got red hair / The air conditioning's not working / He might be a terrorist / He might be a Brazilian plumber / He might be .....'

Conducter: 'Just stay at the back of the train and wait until the next station then you can get off.'

 

[YorkshireBear]

That's really why I questioned regional and Intercity trains where the next stop might be 30 or more minutes away so to get the dog off would require an unscheduled stop. However, also if it's an air conditioned train where it fails and there aren't opening windows as backup then it might affect the both dog's mood and health if he/she has to remain on the train.

the same could be said of an agreesive person though which is as likely...

 

[bnm]

All animals are under stress when travelling by train

That is just not true of all dogs though. Well trained and the dog will not be stressed one bit.

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps this thread should re-titled: Should anyone be allowed on trains? Attacks by humans on humans happen on trains so perhaps they should be caged or muzzled.

Humans don't usually get aggressive because of normal occurrences e.g. Pacer goes round sharp corner and starts squealing, dog doesn't like noise and starts barking frantically while human thinks that the noise is because the train is a piece of ****.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Humans don't usually get aggressive because of normal occurrences e.g. Pacer goes round sharp corner and starts squealing, dog doesn't like noise and starts barking frantically while human thinks that the noise is because the train is a piece of ****.

Barking isnt being aggresive though it is just their way of talking. If it went round a curve and started ridding lumps out of people i would agree.

 

[fadge]

Well, at least you know the dog won't be the one opening doors and self-evacuating onto the track.

"self-evacuating" snigger...

 

[northwichcat]

Barking isnt being aggresive though it is just their way of talking.

It can be aggressive or it can be normal talking. A dog barking at a sound he/she doesn't like is not the same as a dog barking when out in a field with a ball. If a human starts shouting at the conductor they can't argue that they are just talking to him.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It can be aggressive or it can be normal talking. A dog barking at a sound he/she doesn't like is not the same as a dog barking when out in a field with a ball. If a human starts shouting at the conductor they can't argue that they are just talking to him.

Yeah but humans don't bark which makes it easier... who knows what the dog is saying.

 

[swt_passenger]

Humans don't usually get aggressive because of normal occurrences...

When you read some of the posts in the fares section though...

"The bloke asked to see my ticket so I became aggressive" (or words to that effect) seem to come up every few days.

 

[WestCoast]

All animals are under stress when travelling by train, and this will inevitably increase levels of aggression.

Not all animals become stressed. It depends on the individual animal, in the same way that some pets hate fireworks and some couldn't care less. Dogs can get used to lots of environments as domesticated animals, my dog has travelled in cars and on buses/trains since being a small puppy. She tends to sleep/rest.

When you read some of the posts in the fares section though...

"The bloke asked to see my ticket so I became aggressive" (or words to that effect) seem to come up every few days.

Quite! Canines are usually better behaved than some passengers!

 

[D2022]

Reading this incident:


http://www.northwichguardian.co.uk/news/9886851.Police_appeal_after_dog_bite_on_train/?ref=mr

Has made by think should we allow any type of dog on any train? I personally don't think dogs would be well suited to busy regional or Intercity trains (where the owner can't easily take them off if they start getting worked up.) Then certain types of dog being on the train could make other passengers uncomfortable even if they aren't been aggressive - if a group of teenagers board with 6 Rottweilers I can't see other passengers feeling too comfortable even if the Rottweilers don't cause any problems.

interesting to see Rotties mentioned in a dangerous dog style thread. I recall seeing something on the news that your 50 times more likely to be attacked by a Golden Retriever than a Rottie.

That's certainly true of my 3 Rotties, they are scared of their own shadows half the time, though the eldest is trained to protect women, surely that would be ok on a train?

 

[northwichcat]

When you read some of the posts in the fares section though...

"The bloke asked to see my ticket so I became aggressive" (or words to that effect) seem to come up every few days.

I can only think of 4 instances on trains I have been on when the passenger has really got annoyed with the conductor opposed to sighing or similar when they are asked to show a ticket that they had already shown.

Instance 1: The conductor refused a rail card discount to someone who didn't buy a ticket before he boarded. The passenger said something like "Oh that's ridiculous" when the conductor told him the full fare he would have to pay.

Instance 2: Similar to instance 1 but being sold an Anytime ticket at an Off-Peak time instead. Passenger slightly more rude than in instance 1 but was a boy of around 14.

Instance 3: Conductor refusing to issue a zero excess when ticket office was closed. Passenger expressed annoyance but conductor was in the wrong unlike previous 2 instances.

Instance 4: Passenger asks conductor for child ticket at 10am on school day. Passenger not in school uniform and did not look under 16. Conductor says he'll only issue a child ticket if passenger can prove he is under 16, passenger responds saying the conductor needs to prove he's over 16 if he wants to sell him an adult ticket.

Really 3/4 of those are passengers being rude when the conductor is doing their job and aren't being aggressive or a danger to anyone and the other is a passenger standing up for their customer rights.

 

[WestCoast]

I can only think of 4 instances on trains I have been on when the passenger has really got annoyed with the conductor opposed to sighing or similar when they are asked to show a ticket that they had already shown.

They are just personal anecdotes though - numerous assaults on train staff and passengers have been documented in the press, on this forum and on other outlets. I'm sure some of the staff on here have their own stories. These incidents far outnumber occurrences involving animals.

As a personal anecdote, I have been on a train where a passenger started asking for fare money from people in the carriage. He became quite threatening and aggressive when people refused - ended up with the BTP.

 

[Oswyntail]

Not all animals become stressed. It depends on the individual animal,...

I think all animals - including humans - become stressed, but, as you say, some can cope better than others. And, with animals, we cannot tell what their limits and reactions are going to be. Also, dogs that are well-trained to rail travel must have started off somewhere! I think it is impractical to leave the assessment up to individual cases (because some owners will not bother, or their assessment of their pet's tolerance will be way off beam).
The indignant comparisons with human passengers really fall short because, rightly or wrongly, we believe our fellow humans understand the concept of law and proper behaviour according to circumstance. Dogs don't.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

A small dog like a Jack Russel is more likely to bite than a big dog.
I think dogs should be allowed, but having them muzzled could be the way to go, especially on crowded trains.
Long extending leads are a nuisance and a trip hazard.

 

[jon0844]

Am I more likely to be bitten because I carry a Bite card in my wallet?

 

[WestCoast]

Also, dogs that are well-trained to rail travel must have started off somewhere! I think it is impractical to leave the assessment up to individual cases (because some owners will not bother, or their assessment of their pet's tolerance will be way off beam)..

I wouldn't necessarily object to all dogs having to wear muzzles (provided that really was all dogs for the sake of fairness) - if only for the fact that I accept that some dogs can become overly stressed while travelling. However, one must consider that a train isn't the only place by any means where people come into close contact with dogs...

Long extending leads are a nuisance and a trip hazard.

Dogs being kept on a short lead should be common sense.

The indignant comparisons with human passengers really fall short because, rightly or wrongly, we believe our fellow humans understand the concept of law and proper behaviour according to circumstance

Yes, we do, but we have also seen plenty of instances where people behave in an appalling manner and have caused more damage than a well-controlled dog could ever do. Such is life, but I agree that it can't be compared to canine aggression.

 

[Yew]

Maybe we could have a policy like some commuter toc's have with bikes? On off peak services only, to make sure the animal doesn't become overly stressed due to crowding.

I don't think muzzles are required, this was one isolated incident. Maybe a leaflet with tips for taking your dog on the train, offering advice and such, could BR a better solution?

 

[michael769]

Bit like saying if a person is assaulted by another person then we should ban all people from trains. You have to take each individual case as it comes.

I think this is a fine plan! Travelling on a train with other people is a pain!

Seriously though people are required to keep their dogs under control at all times in public places and trains are no different. If a dog cannot be trusted with strangers and/or other dogs then its owner has no business taking it on a train.

Unfortunately there are a minority of folks who get dogs they cannot control as status symbols - or who simply fail to make allowances for their dogs behavioral traits. I don't think the right response is to penalise the vast majority of responsible dog owners - what is required is robust action against those who refuse to behave responsibly with penalties calculated to deter such irresponsible behavior.

Ideally folks who cause such problems should be permanently banned from the railways. People who cause undue and avoidable distress, fear or injury to other passengers have no place on the railway, and their victims deserve effective protection from them.

 

[Oswyntail]

..... However, one must consider that a train isn't the only place by any means where people come into close contact with dogs.......

The problem here is really the confined space with little or no flexibility in getting away, either for the dog or the passenger.

I don't think muzzles are required, this was one isolated incident. Maybe a leaflet with tips for taking your dog on the train, offering advice and such, could BR a better solution?

However, when dog meets dog there can be a heck of a lot of social interaction, that can include aggression. I think this is the sort of situation in which pre-emptive action is more sensible than waiting for the next "isolated incident", which might be more serious. What advice could a leaflet offer on "What to do if your dog meets another dog to whom he takes an instant dislike on a train"?

 

[Lee_Again]

No. Dogs should not be allowed on trains. In the passenger compartments at least. Guide dogs would be an obvious exception to this rule.

Why? Dogs are animals which means, they're unpredicatable, they smell, they poop, they bite and they leave hairs everywhere.

Last year I was on the Jacobite. 6 of us booked around two tables of 4. Yep, sitting under one table was a dog. Not sure where my legs were supposed to go but according to the owners he had every right to be there as they had bought a ticket.

This is the problem with dog owners. They treat them like humans.

I don't hate dogs in a 'hurt' them sense but I don't want to be around them. If you must travel with them put them in a cage in the guards area.

Nothing worse than a dog jumping up at you with a grinning owner pleading, "he just wants to be friends". Well, not near me. Any dog does that to me gets put in its place straight away. Unless, of course, it's a baby killer, in which case you just freeze and prey that this dogs 'day' hasn't come just yet.

 

[YorkshireBear]

No. Dogs should not be allowed on trains. In the passenger compartments at least. Guide dogs would be an obvious exception to this rule.

Why? Dogs are animals which means, they're unpredicatable, they smell, they poop, they bite and they leave hairs everywhere.

Last year I was on the Jacobite. 6 of us booked around two tables of 4. Yep, sitting under one table was a dog. Not sure where my legs were supposed to go but according to the owners he had every right to be there as they had bought a ticket.

This is the problem with dog owners. They treat them like humans.

I don't hate dogs in a 'hurt' them sense but I don't want to be around them. If you must travel with them put them in a cage in the guards area.

Nothing worse than a dog jumping up at you with a grinning owner pleading, "he just wants to be friends". Well, not near me. Any dog does that to me gets put in its place straight away. Unless, of course, it's a baby killer, in which case you just freeze and prey that this dogs 'day' hasn't come just yet.

Sweeping generalisations much????

I would never put a dog in the gaurds van, no windows or anything and i doubt i would be allowed to stay in there with them so they would be left on their own!
I dont treat a dog as a human i treat a dog as a dog. Yes they poop but they dont just do it anywhere! usually they have preferences and most ownders will make them go before travelling!