Friends and Family Railcard

[blue sabre]

Am I right in thinking that if I travel with my partner and our 3 month old daughter, as long as we pay for ourselves and a child ticket for our daughter - even though it is not a necessity as she is under 5 - we would be eligible to use a F+F rail card?

 

[jon0844]

Yes I believe that to be correct. You must have a child ticket for your own tickets to be valid, even when a child doesn't need one.

Our son is 6 months old and has only been on a train in Sweden so far. Apparently here it's not only the baby that travels free but the Adult that travels with it (only one adult though; no idea about more than one baby). I am not sure if that is true as it was heard from family friend and we both paid to be on safe side.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

From the horse's mouth:

Railcard Terms & Conditions

Eligibility
To use your Family & Friends Railcard, your group must contain at least one named cardholder and at least one child aged between 5 and 15 years. The maximum group size is up to four adults (aged 16 years and over) including the named cardholder(s), and four children (aged 5-15 years). Don’t forget children under five travel free and each adult may take up to two “under fives” with them.

If the only child in the Family & Friends Railcard group is aged less than five years of age, the Railcard holder must purchase a discounted ticket for that child in order for the accompanying adult(s) to qualify for the discount on their tickets.

 

[blue sabre]

I did read that, and it seemed straightforward enough, but I thought therewas no harm checking on here before I made an expensive mistake! Cheers.

 

[34D]

Yes I believe that to be correct. You must have a child ticket for your own tickets to be valid, even when a child doesn't need one.

Our son is 6 months old and has only been on a train in Sweden so far. Apparently here it's not only the baby that travels free but the Adult that travels with it (only one adult though; no idea about more than one baby). I am not sure if that is true as it was heard from family friend and we both paid to be on safe side.

No, the adult with the child never travels free. For an under 5 your choices are:

Adult pays full price, under 5 travels free (max 2 under 5s for each adult)

Adult uses railcard, under 5 uses railcard and has a child ticket (can someone remind the max group size; is it 2a 3c or 1a 4c?)

 

[LexyBoy]

I think Jon missed out a 't' and meant to refer to travel in Sweden

I did read that, and it seemed straightforward enough, but I thought therewas no harm checking on here before I made an expensive mistake! Cheers.

Understandable, it's not all that clear from the leaflet/website what's allowed, as elsewhere it says something like "a child aged between 5 and 15 must be included in the party".

You'll not come across any problems though, other than the occasional guard saying that the baby doesn't need a ticket (usually having not clocked the Railcard).

 

[SussexMan]

Railcard Terms & Conditions

Eligibility
To use your Family & Friends Railcard, your group must contain at least one named cardholder and at least one child aged between 5 and 15 years. The maximum group size is up to four adults (aged 16 years and over) including the named cardholder(s), and four children (aged 5-15 years). Don’t forget children under five travel free and each adult may take up to two “under fives” with them.

If the only child in the Family & Friends Railcard group is aged less than five years of age, the Railcard holder must purchase a discounted ticket for that child in order for the accompanying adult(s) to qualify for the discount on their tickets.

Well, seeing that the two paragraphs contradict each other, it's not that straightforward! The first paragraph says "your group must contain at least one child aged 5 to 15" and the second paragraph says "if the only child is less than five".

And I'm left uncertain what to do if I have two under 5s but no 5 - 15 year olds. Do both under 5s need a ticket or just one - or if you read it carefully, I think that if you have more than one under 5 and no 5 - 15 year olds, you can't use your Railcard (because if you have two children, there isn't an only child). Because it is ambiguous I don't know if my suggested wording is correct.

Would this work?

Railcard Terms & Conditions

Eligibility
To use your Family & Friends Railcard, your group must contain at least one named cardholder and at least one child aged under 16 years. The maximum group size is up to four adults (aged 16 years and over) including the named cardholder(s), and four children (aged less than 16 years). Don’t forget children under five travel free and each adult may take up to two “under fives” with them, although if you only have children aged under 5 in the group, then you must buy one child ticket.

 

[LexyBoy]

can someone remind the max group size; is it 2a 3c or 1a 4c?)

Maximum is 4a4c (at least 1a1c, no more than 4 of either); not sure on the rules where under 5s are concerned.

 

[jon0844]

I think Jon missed out a 't' and meant to refer to travel in Sweden

Actually I am here (Sweden) at the moment but of course nobody had any reason to know that, so I should have said there instead of here.

 

[SussexMan]

Maximum is 4a4c; not sure on the rules where under 5s are concerned.

Well I reckon it must be 4 Adults, 4 children 5-15 and 8 children <5.

Which then thinking on it means my earlier suggested wording will be wrong. How about:

Railcard Terms & Conditions

Eligibility
To use your Family & Friends Railcard, your group must contain at least one named cardholder and at least one child aged under 16 years. The maximum group size is up to four adults (aged 16 years and over) including the named cardholder(s), four children (aged 5 - 15 years) and two children aged under 5 for each adult aged over 16 in the group. Don’t forget children under five travel free, although if you only have children aged under 5 in the group, then you must buy one child ticket.

 

[IanD]

Children under five years of age

Up to two children under five years of age may accompany each fare-paying passenger free of charge, unless the Train Company you want to use specifies otherwise in their notices and other publications. However, children under five years of age who are travelling free may only occupy a seat which is not required by a fare-paying passenger

(my bold)

So by my reckoning, the maximum party size for the F&F railcard is 4 Adults, 4 5-16s (as long as any 16s were 15 when railcard bought) and 16 under 5s.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

This issue is obviously not complicated enough so:

Since the adults and children don't actually have to be related, all the children in the party could be an "only child"

 

[fgwtt1988]

This has been a question that often comes up at the ticket office window and it's always a tricky one to explain as simple as possible. To try to put it as simple as possible.. yes you can get Family & Friends Railcard discount as long as you buy a child ticket for the under 5 year old. There's nothing in the terms and conditions of the railcard to clarify this though but I personally have sold tickets just like this and there has never been a problem, under 5 or 5-15 years old.. they're all still children!

 

[jon0844]

But what you can't do is merely buy a child ticket if there's no child with you. Even though technically the railway is better off.

 

[SussexMan]

But what you can't do is merely buy a child ticket if there's no child with you. Even though technically the railway is better off.

Why would the railway be better off?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But what you can't do is merely buy a child ticket if there's no child with you. Even though technically the railway is better off.

Had someone ask to do this today and I said I wouldn't want to be them when the guard came round, they settled for the full fare.

In almost all cases the railway is worse off if the discount is given (if it cost more the passenger wouldn't ask for it!), even a £24 fare would be £20 for an adult and child with the Railcard discount.

 

[jon0844]

Why would the railway be better off?

One less person. I realise the counter argument about the others needing to pay full price, but you surely got what I meant.

 

[SussexMan]

One less person. I realise the counter argument about the others needing to pay full price, but you surely got what I meant.

No, sorry but I didn't get what you meant - hence I asked. If I understand you now, you mean they would be better off by having to convey fewer passengers (and receiving less money in the process).

 

[jon0844]

No, sorry but I didn't get what you meant - hence I asked. If I understand you now, you mean they would be better off by having to convey fewer passengers (and receiving less money in the process).

But they got paid for, say, three and only carried two. Anyway this is pointless as the discount doesn't apply if there's no child and that's that. If it did, it could be open to abuse and that's why - even though there might be genuine situations where a child might not be able to travel and the adults still wish to (and must now pay more).

 

[island]

But they got paid for, say, three and only carried two.

Yes, but the two should have paid more than the three. The marginal cost saving of not carrying an extra person is negligible.

 

[neilmc]

It's an inducement to try to get families to travel by rail - after all, once there's more than one of you travelling together using the car is often both the easiest and most economical option, and I reckon that a lot of journeys on a family railcard have only been undertaken BECAUSE a railcard is held and train travel therefore comes into the equation more than it would otherwise.

If you could travel on a family railcard without a child people would use it for business trips as the adults travelling don't need to be related.

This differs from the combined day tickets issued by PTEs such as Peak Wayfarers and Dayrovers where "family" tickets can often be used by two adults together without children.

 

[blakey1152]

I often use my Family and Friends railcard to buy tickets for myself, other half and my 3 year old daughter..all with no problems whatsoever.

For me, the major advantage is when travelling a longer distance you get a seat reservation for the child.
Very handy rather than trying to keep a toddler on your lap for the entire journey on a packed train!!!

Chris