FCC notice of prosecution with valid ticket

[Zeeshm]

Hi

Was travelling with valid carnet ticket with date written on it this morning and as I walked through the barrier the ticket inspector said my ticket wasn't valid. I told him it wa and grabbed my ticket out of his hand and ran along for my morning train- which I almost missed.

He then chased me onto the train started all the usual spiel about BTP but I know my rights and offered to pay for the full single fare or a fine he offered me neither. I'm unsure how he thinks I didn't have a valid ticket when the date was written on. He seized the ticket and gave me a slip but no paperwork.

A few days prior I had walked through the barrier as I had forgotten to date my carnet ticket. Harsh lesson learnt this guy starting giving me grief so I just walked out behind someone else rather than listening to his bs. Appreciate it was the wrong thing to do I was extremely tired after my 12 hour shift at work.

Now the revenue inspector has sent my ticket onto FCCs prosecution dept. from what I gather on these forums is I'm probably going to have to settle.

Any ideas on how I can minimise all this cost? I did not sign his declaration or notebook but did write on his slip that I didn't agree with his version of events. I know I know I'm stupid but I'm stubborn and was irritated.

Tips would be welcomed. Was between Luton and farringdon.

Thanks

Zee

 

[Simon11]

Hi

Was travelling with valid carnet ticket with date written on it this morning and as I walked through the barrier the ticket inspector said my ticket wasn't valid. I told him it wa and grabbed my ticket out of his hand and ran along for my morning train- which I almost missed.

He then chased me onto the train started all the usual spiel about BTP but I know my rights and offered to pay for the full single fare or a fine he offered me neither. I'm unsure how he thinks I didn't have a valid ticket when the date was written on. He seized the ticket and gave me a slip but no paperwork.

A few days prior I had walked through the barrier as I had forgotten to date my carnet ticket. Harsh lesson learnt this guy starting giving me grief so I just walked out behind someone else rather than listening to his bs. Appreciate it was the wrong thing to do I was extremely tired after my 12 hour shift at work.

Now the revenue inspector has sent my ticket onto FCCs prosecution dept. from what I gather on these forums is I'm probably going to have to settle.

Any ideas on how I can minimise all this cost? I did not sign his declaration or notebook but did write on his slip that I didn't agree with his version of events. I know I know I'm stupid but I'm stubborn and was irritated.

Tips would be welcomed. Was between Luton and farringdon.

Thanks

Zee

How could you be so rude to grab your ticket, after it was being inspected. Its not the railways fault that you were about to miss your train. If you start to run away, what is the inspector going to think?

Just wait to see what comes through the post to see what has it accused you of? As you state you had a valid ticket, why would you then be prepared to buy a single ticket- your story doesn't add up...

What does your other incident got to do with this? I'm totally confused....

 

[455driver]

Hi
grabbed my ticket out of his hand and ran along for my morning train-

walked out behind someone else rather than listening to his bs.

I know I'm stupid but I'm stubborn and was irritated.

Tips would be welcomed.
Zee

Learn some manners would be a start!

You write on here that you have been abusive/ ignorant towards railstaff and you want our help, good luck!

 

[GadgetMan]

but I know my rights....

As you know your rights so well, what is it you need advice with?

You've rattled their cage and now they're gonna try and educate you. Ain't no one here that can help you, suggest you seek legal advice.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I am a bit surprised at the above comments.
If a member of staff tried to tell me that my ticket was not valid, when it damn well was valid, and the conversation would result in me missing my train, I would do exactly the same thing as the OP!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Hi

Was travelling with valid carnet ticket with date written on it this morning and as I walked through the barrier the ticket inspector said my ticket wasn't valid. I told him it wa and grabbed my ticket out of his hand and ran along for my morning train- which I almost missed.

He then chased me onto the train started all the usual spiel about BTP but I know my rights and offered to pay for the full single fare or a fine he offered me neither. I'm unsure how he thinks I didn't have a valid ticket when the date was written on. He seized the ticket and gave me a slip but no paperwork.

A few days prior I had walked through the barrier as I had forgotten to date my carnet ticket. Harsh lesson learnt this guy starting giving me grief so I just walked out behind someone else rather than listening to his bs. Appreciate it was the wrong thing to do I was extremely tired after my 12 hour shift at work.

Now the revenue inspector has sent my ticket onto FCCs prosecution dept. from what I gather on these forums is I'm probably going to have to settle.

Any ideas on how I can minimise all this cost? I did not sign his declaration or notebook but did write on his slip that I didn't agree with his version of events. I know I know I'm stupid but I'm stubborn and was irritated.

Tips would be welcomed. Was between Luton and farringdon.

Thanks

Zee

Until they write to you, there is little 'helpful' advice we can give you, however, you come across as someone who thinks everyone owes them a favour, as someone who is impolite, aggressive and uncooperative. None of this does you any favours.

The RPI was doing his job when you didn't date your ticket, you were rude and impatient to him. I doubt his 'giving you grief' and his 'bs' is any more than justification for your, frankly pathetic, actions on that occasion.

Having made an impression on this RPI, I'm not surprised he took closer inspection to your ticket this time, and once again you don't come across smelling of roses. You have a train every 15 minutes for most, if not all, the day, if you didn't have the time to wait for the next one there is only one person you can apportion blame to, and that isn't the RPI. You actions are precisely what I would expect from a fare evader.

Finally, saying 'all the usual spiel about BTP' actually suggests you have heard it many times before. On the assumption your ticket was in fact valid, you won't be prosecuted for that (though they may pick another offence if your account is anything to go by).

As you wanted some tips, I'll let you have some to ponder on while you wait for that letter to drop through your letterbox:

• Allow more time to catch your train.
• Allow more time to make your journey.
• Learn some manners, they don't cost a penny.

 

[Squaddie]

Was travelling with valid carnet ticket with date written on it this morning and as I walked through the barrier the ticket inspector said my ticket wasn't valid...

I know my rights and offered to pay for the full single fare or a fine he offered me neither. I'm unsure how he thinks I didn't have a valid ticket when the date was written on.

I don't really understand why you would offer to pay the full single fare or even a fine if your ticket were valid.

 

[yorkie]

I don't really understand why you would offer to pay the full single fare or even a fine if your ticket were valid.

Neither do I, so I am totally confused. The original post does not make any sense to me and appears to be a jumbled, incomplete, description of more than one incident.

 

[RJ]

Hi

Was travelling with valid carnet ticket with date written on it this morning and as I walked through the barrier the ticket inspector said my ticket wasn't valid. I told him it wa and grabbed my ticket out of his hand and ran along for my morning train- which I almost missed.

He then chased me onto the train started all the usual spiel about BTP but I know my rights and offered to pay for the full single fare or a fine he offered me neither. I'm unsure how he thinks I didn't have a valid ticket when the date was written on. He seized the ticket and gave me a slip but no paperwork.

A few days prior I had walked through the barrier as I had forgotten to date my carnet ticket. Harsh lesson learnt this guy starting giving me grief so I just walked out behind someone else rather than listening to his bs. Appreciate it was the wrong thing to do I was extremely tired after my 12 hour shift at work.

Now the revenue inspector has sent my ticket onto FCCs prosecution dept. from what I gather on these forums is I'm probably going to have to settle.

Any ideas on how I can minimise all this cost? I did not sign his declaration or notebook but did write on his slip that I didn't agree with his version of events. I know I know I'm stupid but I'm stubborn and was irritated.

Tips would be welcomed. Was between Luton and farringdon.

Thanks

Zee

Was it the correct date for that todays travel written on it? If so, could you explain why you offered to pay for a new ticket or even pay a fine? Something doesn't add up.

You may profess to know your rights, so you should also know your responsibilities. This includes adherence to the Railway Byelaws. Going by what you've posted, you've violated several of them. It may not be wise to pretend that you know what your rights are, as it's not impressive or conducive to the situation you have landed yourself in. Furthermore if you're seeking advice, it would be helpful if you were more concise in your recollection of what happened.

 

[Monty]

I am a bit surprised at the above comments.
If a member of staff tried to tell me that my ticket was not valid, when it damn well was valid, and the conversation would result in me missing my train, I would do exactly the same thing as the OP!

The OPs diatribe of a post was in such an ignorant tone I doubt if he really knew if his ticket was valid for the journey he was making. :roll: As for 'Tailgating' just to avoid an inspector's BS...:roll::roll::roll:

Hi

Was travelling with valid carnet ticket with date written on it this morning and as I walked through the barrier the ticket inspector said my ticket wasn't valid. I told him it wa and grabbed my ticket out of his hand and ran along for my morning train- which I almost missed.

He then chased me onto the train started all the usual spiel about BTP but I know my rights and offered to pay for the full single fare or a fine he offered me neither. I'm unsure how he thinks I didn't have a valid ticket when the date was written on. He seized the ticket and gave me a slip but no paperwork.

A few days prior I had walked through the barrier as I had forgotten to date my carnet ticket. Harsh lesson learnt this guy starting giving me grief so I just walked out behind someone else rather than listening to his bs. Appreciate it was the wrong thing to do I was extremely tired after my 12 hour shift at work.

Now the revenue inspector has sent my ticket onto FCCs prosecution dept. from what I gather on these forums is I'm probably going to have to settle.

Any ideas on how I can minimise all this cost? I did not sign his declaration or notebook but did write on his slip that I didn't agree with his version of events. I know I know I'm stupid but I'm stubborn and was irritated.

Tips would be welcomed. Was between Luton and farringdon.

Thanks

Zee

You've asked our advice so I'll give you mine:

1. Learn some manners and accept the fact when you travel on the railway you travel by their rules or you don't travel at all.

2. Seek legal advice and enjoy the fine.

 

[soil]

Looks like:

* the OP attempted to board a train with an undated carnet, which is a common fare avoidance tactic. He then ran off having been caught by the inspector.

* a day or two later the same inspector recognised him, this time having been caught once, he had taken the trouble to date his ticket. He ran off again, but was chased by the inspector who was still after him for the first offence.

* The inspector got the entirely justified impression that the OP habitually avoids paying his fare, which is a criminal offence, an impression only reinforced by bolshy, repeat offender claims such as 'I know my rights', and repeatedly running away, and has recommended that he be prosecuted (for the first offence), which seems reasonable in the circumstances.

OP: have you received a letter from FCC? A prosecution/criminal record seems wholly justified in the circumstances, assuming you don't want that you obviously need to settle with them, which I guess will cost a few hundred, but I wouldn't like to say.

 

[Flamingo]

Just speculation, but the date may have been written on the ticket AFTER it had been seen by the inspector. The OP did say he ran away with the ticket, and the RPI caught up with him on the train...

 

[jon0844]

Edit: just re-read and realised you didn't use a gate. Whoops!

However, I'll keep my irrelevant post for anyone that has and found their carnet rejected:

Did the gate give error 115? That's what I get nearly every time (yet one of my Carnet tickets DID work the other day). I asked FCC via Twitter and they said they were investigating.

My tickets are valid and are dated before I pass the gate line. However, getting an error and seeking assistance might very well make a revenue officer suspicious. That doesn't mean it isn't valid, and I can't say what I'd do if I was suddenly held for ages while they investigate or conclude that my ticket (with a value of £5 and only one being 'free' out of ten) and take it off me.

 

[wellhouse]

Hi

Was travelling with valid carnet ticket with date written on it this morning and as I walked through the barrier the ticket inspector said my ticket wasn't valid. I told him it wa and grabbed my ticket out of his hand and ran along for my morning train- which I almost missed.

He then chased me onto the train started all the usual spiel about BTP but I know my rights and offered to pay for the full single fare or a fine he offered me neither. I'm unsure how he thinks I didn't have a valid ticket when the date was written on. He seized the ticket and gave me a slip but no paperwork.

A few days prior I had walked through the barrier as I had forgotten to date my carnet ticket. Harsh lesson learnt this guy starting giving me grief so I just walked out behind someone else rather than listening to his bs. Appreciate it was the wrong thing to do I was extremely tired after my 12 hour shift at work.

Now the revenue inspector has sent my ticket onto FCCs prosecution dept. from what I gather on these forums is I'm probably going to have to settle.

Any ideas on how I can minimise all this cost? I did not sign his declaration or notebook but did write on his slip that I didn't agree with his version of events. I know I know I'm stupid but I'm stubborn and was irritated.

Tips would be welcomed. Was between Luton and farringdon.

Thanks

Zee

Your post has prompted some unsympathetic responses, but from what you tell us it is by no means certain that you have to settle anything. You are quite entitled to be irritated, but as long as you comply with the NCoC (National Conditions of Carriage), you should have no problem.

If you provide complete information, it is possible to give appropriate advice.

1. You seem to confess to having breached the NCoC on a previous journey; did the Ticket Inspector issue the slip about the first journey or the second journey?

2. What exactly was the 'harsh lesson learnt' on the previous occasion, and how did you adjust your behaviour on subsequent journeys?

3. Did you retrieve the ticket from the Inspector at the barrier before his inspection was complete? (If not, why did he say he chased you on to the train?)

4. You say you know your rights; why do you consider it necessary to offer further payment if you hold a valid ticket?

5. You say you have no paperwork, but a slip is paperwork; what exactly does it say?

6. What precisely is your disagreement with the Ticket Inspector's version of events?

 

[scotsman]

If I am to believe your story, then it seems likely that you could clear yourself with the help of forum members.

However, if I am to believe your story, you broke a number of minor by-laws (which you are less likely to be prosecuted under) and were a complete tw*t towards the staff.

Congratulations, you've just dug yourself a hole!

 

[Ferret]

I don't really understand why you would offer to pay the full single fare or even a fine if your ticket were valid.

No, me neither, and it's a fact that won't have been lost on the Revenue Inspector either!

Furthermore, why did the RPI threaten the OP with the Police? Failure to give details when asked perhaps?

So, on to some advice for the OP. I don't know if you've done your own research at all, but if you've browsed the forum, you may have found a thread where FCC declined to settle a case involving a carnet ticket prior to Court. I think they are operating a zero-tolerance policy on carnet fraud, as is their right.

This, in addition to your behaviour (which will have been captured on CCTV I suspect) means there is very little chance of an out of Court settlement, and maybe no chance at all.

I think you can expect to go to Court, maybe being prosecuted for intent to avoid your fare under S5 of the Regulation of Railways Act. This gives you a criminal record, with all the associated issues that brings up.

 

[snail]

Something makes me think this is an OP we may never hear from again, having not got the 'tips' he was looking for to get out of this. But I am happy to be proved wrong.

 

[Ferret]

Something makes me think this is an OP we may never hear from again, having not got the 'tips' he was looking for to get out of this. But I am happy to be proved wrong.

Maybe, but there aren't any tips to be offered - if the facts resemble what he's posted here, then he's out of options, bar finding a damn good lawyer skilled in the arts of mitigation. Of course, that may lessen the fine received, but cost him more in legal fees! Not a nice predicament to be in, but one entirely of his own making by the sound of it. And, let's be honest, neither of us have passports that say 'Mr Worker', first name 'Miracle'!

 

[34D]

I think you can expect to go to Court, maybe being prosecuted for intent to avoid your fare under S5 of the Regulation of Railways Act. This gives you a criminal record, with all the associated issues that brings up.

But he has a valid ticket!!

 

[Ferret]

But he has a valid ticket!!

He says he does...not sure I believe him! If you held a valid ticket, would you offer to pay a 'fine'?

 

[34D]

He says he does...not sure I believe him! If you held a valid ticket, would you offer to pay a 'fine'?

Forum state that one must be truthful.... So if he wants the best advice he will be honest.

If I was in an alteration with an FCC inspector* and I was in a rush to get to work then yes I would, and would write/email to get my money back after the event.

* - a couple of years ago I encountered an RPI on FCC GN who accused me of reusing the return portion of a saver ticket, even though that had not been done and there was no evidential basis at all (including the mag swipe) for thinking so. Cue vouchers and apology from senior management.

 

[Ferret]

34D, I've no idea why I'm bothering with this, but read through his story - I've seen less holes in a sieve! The guy was chased onto the train by the RPI. So, the rushing to work argument doesn't hold any water at that point!

I'm glad you had a good outcome having done nothing wrong. Alas, this chap will not be able to say the same as you, based on his posting yesterday.

 

[swt_passenger]

But he has a valid ticket!!

But that has little or no relevance now, if the ticket inspector was still trying to resolve the previous incident, when it seems the OP legged it when bang to rights. Did the OP seriously assume that was the end of that issue?

He was stopped at the barrier with an undated carnet, that isn't just going to be ignored if you happen to show up and get recognised a few days later.

At the original incident (if as reported in the first post) there was also no right to just pay for a new ticket, and no right to just pay a penalty fare either. It is the railway that has those options if it so chooses, not the passenger's right.

 

[yorkie]

It is still unclear to me exactly what happened yesterday, the previous incident, and what conversations took place, and what rights the passenger is asserting.

Zeeshm - please send me a PM if you wish to add anything to this thread. Until then I will leave it locked as there is nothing we can do to assist without knowing exactly what happened.

 

[Zeeshm]

Thank you for all your responses. Was a long day yesterday and maybe I went on a slight rant than being clear. I will try to ad some colour.

- I have been using cornet tickets for a few weeks and have received nothing but harrassment. They never appear to go through the barriers at Luton station but always through the barriers at kings x.

- in regards to the dating ticket rule, I only realised this was the case when a previous ticket inspector gave me a stern telling off for not having it dated.

- I don't need to evade the fare not would I. I am a commuter and occasionally in some weeks I work from home a couple of days a week so it doesn't make sense for me to buy a season ticket. That said given my experiences I'm pretty sure I'm going to stick to these routes going forward

- I caught the 740am train from Luton to farringdon. My reason for snatching the ticket out of the revenue inspectors hand was merely a time constrain. My commute can be delayed massively by getting on a later train.

- I'm sick and tired of being made to feel like a criminal for having a valid ticket, or occassionally lapsing to have a date on it. FCC should of clearly explained these rules to me rather than just throwing fines down my neck.

- yes my behaviour on both occasions was stupid, rude and arrogant. There is no excuse and I accept my actions as my own stupidity. My only defence would be after working 12 hour shifts in a banking environment where everyone is horrid, having a ticket inspector drill you/tell you off isn't what you want to hear.

- I spoke to the revenue officiers situation yesterday and said I am willing to apologise to any staff members and come to a mutual agreement. Appreciate he works for the train company, but it's an option to explore.

- my ticket was written on with a black ballpoint Biro and not a felt, my only assumption could be that the argument would be that the ticket was overwritten- for the record it was not.

I will provide further information once I have it.

 

[Ferret]

Zeeshm, hmmm, maybe was a little hasty drawing conclusions earlier - if so, apologies.

Now, can I ask, is there any reason why you can think the inspector thought the ticket was invalid? As I mentioned in a previous post, we seem to have evidence that FCC are looking for fraud with carnet tickets, and are prosecuting anyone they catch misusing - as is their right. And that's the thing - if you have slipped up with that ticket in any way, you are going to Court I think, and there'll be nothing any of us can do for you, bar suggesting you consult a lawyer. That maybe a good option in any case.

From my point of view (I check tickets among other things for a living), I wouldn't go running after anyone unless I had real grounds to suspect I'd caught somebody up to no good, and even then I'd ask myself if I could be bothered! So, therein lies my reasons for worrying you've done something you shouldn't have!

I suppose you will know more if/when FCC write to you. Perhaps get in touch with us when that happens - if it does!

 

[jon0844]

Tried to post this earlier:

When it is rejected by the gate next, can you check the error code (three digit number) as FCC does have an issue with the new carnet tickets. I want to get this resolved as a rejected ticket will automatically arouse suspicion that might then find you accused of having tampered with the ticket etc.

However, I don't condone running off as it now gives them the ammunition to have a go at you even though you started out having done absolutely nothing wrong.

 

[6Gman]

Thank you for all your responses. Was a long day yesterday and maybe I went on a slight rant than being clear. I will try to ad some colour.

1.
- in regards to the dating ticket rule, I only realised this was the case when a previous ticket inspector gave me a stern telling off for not having it dated.

- I caught the 740am train from Luton to farringdon. My reason for snatching the ticket out of the revenue inspectors hand was merely a time constrain. My commute can be delayed massively by getting on a later train.

2.
- I'm sick and tired of being made to feel like a criminal for having a valid ticket, or occassionally lapsing to have a date on it. FCC should of clearly explained these rules to me rather than just throwing fines down my neck.

3.
- yes my behaviour on both occasions was stupid, rude and arrogant. There is no excuse and I accept my actions as my own stupidity. My only defence would be after working 12 hour shifts in a banking environment where everyone is horrid, having a ticket inspector drill you/tell you off isn't what you want to hear.

I will provide further information once I have it.

1. How else can a Carnet ticket work?
2. But if you haven't dated the Carnet then surely you haven't got a valid ticket?
3. But in an earlier sentence you said the problem was on your morning journey, not after 12 hours at work!

Your story still doesn't really make sense!

 

[MikeWh]

3. But in an earlier sentence you said the problem was on your morning journey, not after 12 hours at work!

Your story still doesn't really make sense!

after working 12 hour shifts

Shifts suggests unusual/anti-social working hours. Maybe it had been a night shift, possibly dealing with trading in the Far East?

 

[Zeeshm]

I believe the ticket inspector was wound up because a few days previously I didn't have a date on a carnet ticket when coming home from work at 2015. This was my own lapse and i admit that. I never reusetens tickets I merely hand them over to the inspectors as I exit the station At luton but i guess that causes half of my problems.

I guess at this stage I didn't have the patience to listen to a further telling off, do stupidly I walked out I the barriers behind another individual. This was unbelievable stupid and in hindsight I realise this.

A few days later as I attempted to board my morning train with my ticket dated all be it with a ballpoint pen and the orange part of the ticket is always a nightmare to write on. A I attempted to go through the barriers was the moment the rpi started saying my ticket was not valid.

I do not trust the rpi, and am unsure what he is going to write in his report. He also claims I swore at him, which I wholeheartedly refuse, why on earth would I be verbally abusive- he's just doing his job I don't have any issues with him per se.

At this present moment having just started the new role I cannot affor legal advice just yet so I will wait until a letter comes through and assess my options then.

My frustration comes from spending thousands of pounds on the railways and these tickets being an absolute headache, I wish I had just stuck to the season ticket route instead.

Thanks

Zee
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If they do take me to court is there any opportunity of writing a grovelling apology and willing to settle out of court. I just don't want to pay a ridiculous fine that's all, or have a crim record for this incident. I've been very anxious about the whole thing since it happened.