First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[swt_passenger]

There's been a whole load of wibble about seating capacity in this thread, but based on rail-britain's figures earlier about the 2016 capacity in absolute terms (ie unit capacity times fleet sizes), the increase is around 9,000.

DfT's press release mentioned around 40000 seats per day, but quite clearly explained that 28000 per day of these were down to the existing Pendolino lengthening programme, and that 12000 per day were down to the new 6 car units. If over an 18 hour day each unit does an average of just over 2 round trips (ie 4 end to end journeys) that makes sense.

What it basically means is that the only real extra capacity increase First are introducing is the 6 car trains, and there's no need whatsoever to drastically alter the Pendolinos at all.

 

[rail-britain]

Have First actually said that "Club Class" will exist on the Voyagers?
With this in mind, I wonder what will happen to Weekend First, unless "Club Class" has no refreshments at weekends?

Club Class will be introduced "early in 2013" to all passengers
That would suggest both Pendolino and Voyager

There is no mention of what will happen at weekends, suggesting it will be very similar to the old InterCity Silver Executive (weekdays only)

 

[YorkshireBear]

There is more legroom in my experience on the FGW HST seats, it's just that the seats are a different shape and taller that makes them seem closer together because they go higher up.

Also we still see the media printing incorrect information:
http://www.birminghammail.net/news/...st-firstgroup-franchise-award-97319-31662751/

Note the last line.

Emailed them and was thanked for my correction, they will alter online article asap.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Yes i think that it would make sense to have club class mon-fri and just de-classify coach G on a weekend on all services and sell more standard advance tickets.

 

[sprinterguy]

Continue? I don't think that's possible at the moment???

Yes, it is, and has been possible to use off-peak tickets on peak time Virgin services as long as a valid railcard is held for some time now. If it wasn't the case, it would be significantly more difficult for me to afford to get to work every day!

 

[tbtc]

If you havent got something to start with you cant miss it when its gone - for example if First were to win Cross Country would I be signing a petition, no - would I be writing to my MP, no

Erm, you are aware that Cross Country was a Virgin run franchise?

 

[dvboy]

Voyagers won't be covering the same diagrams as now, there's the 11 new 6 car EMUs to consider. So for all we know all the Voyagers might be running as 10 car trains by then, and splitting on route to somewhere completely different such as at Wolverhampton for Shrewsbury.

Your recent experience of Voyager operated services might be totally irrelevant to how the timetable works in 3 or 4 years time, ie from 2016...

I don't think I've been on a Voyager with Coach D designated First Class in a long time. Seems to always be Standard now.

 

[sprinterguy]

http://www.firstgroup.com/corporate/our_company/west_coast_FAQ.php[/url]

Railcard easements to stay? Free wi-fi for all "customers"? I'm starting to think that First Group taking over the West Coast might actually be a positive thing for the franchise Contrary to my previous opinions...
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Seating capacity as at May 2016 :
20 Voyager Units 5240 total seats
25 Pendolino Units 10975 total seats
31 Pendolino Units 18259 total seats
11 New 6-car Units 3399 total seats
Capacity 37873 seats

Increase 35% total seating capacity

Is it no longer the case that thirty one existing Pendolinos are being extended to 11 carriages? I thought that was the plan, but these details only suggest a total of thirty one 11-car Pendolinos, comprising the four new 390s and twenty seven existing trains. I suppose that could have been the plan all along, just worded craftily by Virgin.

 

[tbtc]

Railcard easements to stay? Free wi-fi for all "customers"? I'm starting to think that First Group taking over the West Coast might actually be a positive thing for the franchise Contrary to my previous opinions...

...but what about the 3+2 seating and the 800 job losses and the lack of any catering and all the other nonsense?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't think I've been on a Voyager with Coach D designated First Class in a long time. Seems to always be Standard now.

Still used on Chester services. It can be baffling.
Incoming train arrives at Chester, clearly D being Standard (no tablecloths).
You board and sit down, until some busybody walks through claiming it is now First, and clear off please.
Journey immediately becomes a nightmare as all the Standard seats are by then taken.
There is no appropriate signage that I can see.
Eventually the coach is laid up for at-seat service.

 

[DarloRich]

Whats all this guff about Club Class. What a load of old tos*. Cant we just have first and second class and be done with it.

I have an idea! lets make the ticketing sytem MORE complicated!

 

[350401]

Railcard easements to stay? Free wi-fi for all "customers"? I'm starting to think that First Group taking over the West Coast might actually be a positive thing for the franchise Contrary to my previous opinions...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it no longer the case that thirty one existing Pendolinos are being extended to 11 carriages? I thought that was the plan, but these details only suggest a total of thirty one 11-car Pendolinos, comprising the four new 390s and twenty seven existing trains. I suppose that could have been the plan all along, just worded craftily by Virgin.

As far as I know (i.e. from the DfT notice at the time), 31 Class 390 Units are being extended, 4 new 11 car 390 Units coming into service, and 21 Units remain at 9-car. First had the option to extend the remaining 21 units to 11-car but chose not to. So come the end of fleet lengthening, there will be 35 11-car Class 390's and 21 9-car Class 390's.

 

[northwichcat]

...but what about the 3+2 seating and the 800 job losses and the lack of any catering and all the other nonsense?

Replacing 2+2 seating with higher density seating doesn't always mean 3+2 seating - look at the EMT 158s or the FGW HSTs.

 

[snail]

Is it no longer the case that thirty one existing Pendolinos are being extended to 11 carriages? I thought that was the plan, but these details only suggest a total of thirty one 11-car Pendolinos, comprising the four new 390s and twenty seven existing trains. I suppose that could have been the plan all along, just worded craftily by Virgin.

You're right, Rail-Britain's figures don't add up. They are still quoting '106 new carriages', which equates to 4 x 11 new trains (44) + 31 x 2 additional carriages (62).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whats all this guff about Club Class. What a load of old tos*. Cant we just have first and second class and be done with it.

I have an idea! lets make the ticketing sytem MORE complicated!

No, it's ideal for people like me that struggle to get employers to understand that 1st Advance is often cheaper than Anytime Standard and should not be prohibited "'cos rules is rules". I don't see how it is complicated at all. It's the addition of Super Off-Peak I'm dreading, with arcane time restrictions. Now that's complicated!

 

[williamn]

If I remember rightly BR's Silver Standard was pretty popular. Was it for those holding a full price open return? I think you got tea and coffee included, which in those days was quite something!

 

[rail-britain]

You're right, Rail-Britain's figures don't add up. They are still quoting '106 new carriages', which equates to 4 x 11 new trains (44) + 31 x 2 additional carriages (62)

Don't blame me that is what First Group supplied, I sent them back, and they confirmed the seat numbers were correct
They did however advise they had taken operational availability into account
I suspect they simply got the numbers of 9 and 11 car Class 390 round the wrong way

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

First also confirm railcard easement to stay -

This is good news (for me, at any rate).
I would like to understand the logic, though.
If it is good for the West Coast franchise (VT or FWC), why is it not used on other similar franchises, notably FGW and TPE, and maybe EC and XC (ie the longer-distance TOCs)?
There doesn't seem to be much consistency between TOCs, even if they are owned by the same group.

 

[sprinterguy]

I suspect they simply got the numbers of 9 and 11 car Class 390 round the wrong way

That would make even less sense. What we should be seeing is 35 x 11-car Pendolinos and 21 x 9-car Pendolinos.

 

[rail-britain]

If I remember rightly BR's Silver Standard was pretty popular. Was it for those holding a full price open return? I think you got tea and coffee included, which in those days was quite something!

Yes, available for Full price ticket holders on payment of a supplement
I remember the late evening Friday Euston - Glasgow service had this, on the Standad coach next to the Buffet, but I don't remember an equivalent southbound

 

[tbtc]

Replacing 2+2 seating with higher density seating doesn't always mean 3+2 seating - look at the EMT 158s or the FGW HSTs.

3+2 was brought up by Nym - before it was confirmed that First aren't trying to cram more seats in (or sack eight hundred people, or do away with catering, or any of the other fanciful claims that were being made a few days ago)

 

[Lampshade]

Railcard easements to stay? Free wi-fi for all "customers"? I'm starting to think that First Group taking over the West Coast might actually be a positive thing for the franchise Contrary to my previous opinions...

Don't take anything at face value, the PR department is probably in overdrive right now.

 

[DarloRich]

No, it's ideal for people like me that struggle to get employers to understand that 1st Advance is often cheaper than Anytime Standard and should not be prohibited "'cos rules is rules". I don't see how it is complicated at all. It's the addition of Super Off-Peak I'm dreading, with arcane time restrictions. Now that's complicated!

I don’t understand you - is that this new club class will allow you to pretend that you are important, wealthy and successful because you are able to travel in not quite first class?

It is stupid. Have two classes. First or second. Not First, almost first and standard.

It complicates the system by potentially adding in another class of fares with all the myriad complications the British Railway ticketing system brings. It complicates things by giving passengers another layer of ticketing to fail to understand and it complicates things by giving on train staff another group of pis*ed off people to deal with when they travel on an invalid ticket. Passengers find it hard enough dealing with 2 classes let alone 3!

What is the point? Just use the space for more cattle class seats and be done.

(BTW the first advance v standard open debate is one I have constantly at work – it is annoying, as we should all save money, however I understand the reasons behind it. I don’t agree but such is life!)

 

[HH]

What is the point?

The point is extra revenue, and that means paying DfT more premium.

 

[snail]

Don't blame me that is what First Group supplied, I sent them back, and they confirmed the seat numbers were correct
They did however advise they had taken operational availability into account
I suspect they simply got the numbers of 9 and 11 car Class 390 round the wrong way

No, that doesn't work either. They told you 25 + 31, it's actually 21 + 35. Methinks it's a press office that can't do sums.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don’t understand you - is that this new club class will allow you to pretend that you are important, wealthy and successful because you are able to travel in not quite first class?

No, it will enable me to spend 2 hours working in a more comfortable environment if I so choose. That way I may get something productive done free from some of the many distractions elsewhere in the train. That's all it is, choice.

Do you want to bring back standing for Third Class passengers by any chance? No one's mentioned that yet as a way of increasing capacity.

 

[Hazlehead]

This is good news (for me, at any rate).
I would like to understand the logic, though.
If it is good for the West Coast franchise (VT or FWC), why is it not used on other similar franchises, notably FGW and TPE, and maybe EC and XC (ie the longer-distance TOCs)?
There doesn't seem to be much consistency between TOCs, even if they are owned by the same group.

Can't see this being a permanent fixture. Think it may accept them for the validity if the ticket. Ie travelled on 8 th Dec so will allow upto 7th January. Virgin planned to scrap this on 13th Dec anyway.
Does the fact that no other Toc touched this with. Barge pole tell you anything?

 

[snail]

Can't see this being a permanent fixture. Think it may accept them for the validity if the ticket. Ie travelled on 8 th Dec so will allow upto 7th January.

It makes PR sense for First to stay away from negative publicity, reducing ticket options as one of their first decisions would not look good. It's something they can quietly introduce later as part of a wider fare restructuring.

Virgin planned to scrap this on 13th Dec anyway.

Did they say that or is that just based on speculation?

 

[DarloRich]

No, that doesn't work either. They told you 25 + 31, it's actually 21 + 35. Methinks it's a press office that can't do sums.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No, it will enable me to spend 2 hours working in a more comfortable environment if I so choose. That way I may get something productive done free from some of the many distractions elsewhere in the train. That's all it is, choice.

Do you want to bring back standing for Third Class passengers by any chance? No one's mentioned that yet as a way of increasing capacity.

I find I can work quite well in second class. I do it all the time. I will admit it is easier on East Coast because of the seat/table layout but it is perfectly possible on a Pendo. I find Voyagers can be hard because of the vibration. The only time it can be an issue is at 17:00 ish out of Euston but I don’t want to be working then so it doesn’t bother me.

There is a case for standing but not on a long distance route. Look at London Overground.

I know your number on first class - You just want a free cup of tea and a little packet of biscuits! Come on admit it. It is the biscuits isn’t it! ISNT IT! Oh and the lamp
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The point is extra revenue, and that means paying DfT more premium.

but is it? Will First WC not just loose full FC revenue on one carriage and replace it with, essentially, enhanced second class revenue in the same carriage.

Will this not be less than full fc revenue? Am i missing something?

 

[ainsworth74]

Oh and the lamp

Ah you've rumbled me at least, I'm not going to lie the main appeal of first class is the lamp. I always feel short changed on East Coast with the lack of lamps in first class

On a more serious note, I don't think that club class will necessarily mean complicating the fares structure further. If it were implemented as an on board upgrade in the same style as weekend first then I don't see how it would complicate matters at all.

 

[Hazlehead]

It makes PR sense for First to stay away from negative publicity, reducing ticket options as one of their first decisions would not look good. It's something they can quietly introduce later as part of a wider fare restructuring.

Did they say that or is that just based on speculation?

Not speculation came from inside the company.

 

[DarloRich]

Ah you've rumbled me at least, I'm not going to lie the main appeal of first class is the lamp. I always feel short changed on East Coast with the lack of lamps in first class

On a more serious note, I don't think that club class will necessarily mean complicating the fares structure further. If it were implemented as an on board upgrade in the same style as weekend first then I don't see how it would complicate matters at all.

That would be sensible but would it be manageable? Surely the idea will be to advertise it as some kind of enhanced (but not quite first class) standard class service and to buy the tickets in advance?

I just assumed it would be another level of tickets in the same style as all the others. The idea of an upgrade on board to not enter my mind!