First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[HH]

It's not just Hull Trains, it's also the GB Railways operations on Great Western prior to becoming Greater Western that were apparently rather good, referring here to GB Railways, not just Hull Trains.

Great Western? Prior to First buying the franchise it was a management buyout, and responsible for the Southall rail crash.

 

[Nym]

Great Western? Prior to First buying the franchise it was a management buyout, and responsible for the Southall rail crash.

Kak, I'm getting confused there...(!)

And Manchester borrowed a Heathrow A333 when running the routes, as MAN flights tend to attract a slightly higher class than Gatwick flights, the B744s usually had a slightly empter economy, but the A333 flights had too much at the front, hence the cheap tickets.

 

[WestCoast]

The Virgin Atlantic Manchester thing is perhaps slightly linked to the decision about the WCML. BUT I strongly suspect that isn't the main reason. Since bmi disappeared they've been having to put their own connecting passengers on BA (A.K.A the Devil in Branson's dictionary).

 

[Stats]

Regulated Fares are not changeable, but there is room to introduce two layers of off peak tickets.

Thanks, that's what I thought. The problem with the West Coast is that ludicrous price differential between off-peak and Anytime and no ticket for the shoulder peaks creating the demand and supply issues.

I can't see any point in introducing a cheaper off-peak as you would just abstract from your AP tickets - and you want as many tickets sold AP as you can get.

I take your point but cheap walk-on tickets could attract more passengers which would compensate for that abstraction. I'll use me as an example. There are many times when I don't have any plans and I think I'd like to go somewhere this weekend. By the time that thought comes in to my head AP tickets are too expensive for a 'on the whim' trip or I don't want to tied to particular trains and so I decided not to do it and make alternative plans. If there was a cheap walk on ticket I would do the trip. Having some revenue from me is better than none.

 

[snail]

We gain more space again by removing the Service Points in first class.

Oh yes, what a wonderful idea those were! I don't think I have ever seen one used. Having bottled water in the fridges is helpful though, if you are lucky to find one that's been stocked up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Virgin Atlantic Manchester thing is perhaps slightly linked to the decision about the WCML. BUT I strongly suspect that isn't the main reason. Since bmi disappeared they've been having to put their own connecting passengers on BA (A.K.A the Devil in Branson's dictionary).

That's pretty much what a former director of Virgin Atlantic said on the radio last night. He claimed the timing was a coincidence. But he would say that, wouldn't he...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I take your point but cheap walk-on tickets could attract more passengers which would compensate for that abstraction. I'll use me as an example. There are many times when I don't have any plans and I think I'd like to go somewhere this weekend. By the time that thought comes in to my head AP tickets are too expensive for a 'on the whim' trip or I don't want to tied to particular trains and so I decided not to do it and make alternative plans.

One of the better things Virgin introduced was the 'Off-Peak Single' (SVH) at half the return price so you can combine a fixed AP journey with a flexible trip the other way. I quite often know when I want to leave for London, but not be sure about the return journey. If there was a comparable 'Super Off-Peak' I could probably live with that, though mixing 1st AP and SVH is a good option .

 

[rail-britain]

Finally received details of the seating capacity proposals and how First calculated these
From the original Press Release it looked like it was based on the number of services and the total capacity from each service
However that is not the case and is actually based on the fleet only
To me that is a serious flaw

Seating capacity as at May 2011 :
20 Voyager Units 5240 total seats
52 Pendolino Units 22828 total seats
Capacity 28068 seats

Seating capacity as at May 2016 :
20 Voyager Units 5240 total seats
25 Pendolino Units 10975 total seats
31 Pendolino Units 18259 total seats
11 New 6-car Units 3399 total seats
Capacity 37873 seats

Increase 35% total seating capacity

 

[F Great Eastern]

So if my maths are right, that means:

Pendolinos:
22828 divided by 52 = average of 439 seats per train (Pre Refurbihment)
10975+18259 divided by 56 = average 522 seats per train (Post Refurbishment)

New EMU's
3399 divided by 11 = 309 seats per train = 51.5 seats per car.

Voyagers:
5240 divided by 20 = 262 seats per train (unchanged)

I'll leave it down to people with more knowledge of how many are 9 and 11 cars to work out the exact numbers for each type.

 

[David10]

Seating capacity as at May 2016 :
25 Pendolino Units 10975 total seats
31 Pendolino Units 18259 total seats

Indicates the seating capacity will be 439 and 589 respectively for 9 and 11 car Pendolinos. How much does this differ from the current capacity?

 

[northwichcat]

However that is not the case and is actually based on the fleet only
To me that is a serious flaw

Remember that many of us on here were critical of the way the extra seats resulting from the LM 150 cascades were reported due to the fact the same 150 had it seats counted multiple times.

Indicates the seating capacity will be 439 and 589 respectively for 9 and 11 car Pendolinos. How much does this differ from the current capacity?

It doesn't. Your figures seem to be the current seating capacity.

 

[All Line Rover]

There are approx 40 tables in standard in an 11 car train. Remove half and you can add around 20 seats straight away. That is around a 5% increase. Next, lets change G to 'club class' - lets say 2+2 all with tables. That gives an increase of 16 seats - another 4%. We gain more space again by removing the Service Points in first class. Cut down the size of the shop and move the Train Managers office to where a disabled toilet was and you have your 15%.

The percentage gains on 9 car units are bigger.

I have just demonstrated how to make the gain in seats without needing to cram them closer together. Nobody knows what the layout will look like (including the both of us), but my point is that you are just passing on information with no context and assuming the worst.

When I listened to the conference call I assumed, and still assume, that much of that "extra" extra capacity will stem from the conversion of Coach G to either Standard Class or Standard Premium ("Club Class", to use the annoying phrase), as well as from the new 6-car EMUs.

Nowhere has it been indicated that legroom will be reduced.

 

[Wath Yard]

Indicates the seating capacity will be 439 and 589 respectively for 9 and 11 car Pendolinos. How much does this differ from the current capacity?

It doesn't, which is slightly confusing when it was previously posted First were going to convert one of the 1st class carriages to standard, unless they intend to do that and not reduce leg room by cramming more seats into the carriages when they increase luggage space but seat the extra people in the converted carriage.

 

[bnm]

Indicates the seating capacity will be 439 and 589 respectively for 9 and 11 car Pendolinos. How much does this differ from the current capacity?

By.... precisely.... zero.

rail-britain's figures for May 2016 show no change in the seating capacity of 9 and 11 car Pendolinos compared to today.

Which I would surmise means that First do not plan to refit the 390's until after that date.

 

[All Line Rover]

Some of the popular services will be less popular as they look to spread the demand more evenly. For example, it's clear from what they say they'll be changing the pricing structure so that some of those that travel on the first off-peak services after the evening peak will be attracted to the less crowded last peak services.

I'm not sure whether they'll be allowed to rename the off-peak ticket to super off-peak and introduce a off-peak ticket at a pricing level between that and the Anytime ticket? Do the regulatory fare rules allow that?

Yes, they'd be allowed to do that, but the Super-Off-Peak regulated fare could only have its evening peak restrictions extended from 18:45 to 19:00.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I take your point but cheap walk-on tickets could attract more passengers which would compensate for that abstraction. I'll use me as an example. There are many times when I don't have any plans and I think I'd like to go somewhere this weekend. By the time that thought comes in to my head AP tickets are too expensive for a 'on the whim' trip or I don't want to tied to particular trains and so I decided not to do it and make alternative plans. If there was a cheap walk on ticket I would do the trip. Having some revenue from me is better than none.

I'm the same. I've found some good splits for my regular journey, which makes short notice trips to London a reasonable price (although still nowhere near "cheap"). The Advance tickets prices are around £49 (for an Off-Peak service, which at £98 return is more expensive than the Off-Peak return, which even then is still too expensive for an "on-a-whim" trip), yet the train is 1/4 full at best. What a great waste of spare capacity!

 

[northwichcat]

From the Guardian

Also on BBC News now.

 

[YorkshireBear]

So if my maths are right, that means:

Pendolinos:
22828 divided by 52 = average of 439 seats per train (Pre Refurbihment)
10975+18259 divided by 56 = average 522 seats per train (Post Refurbishment)

New EMU's
3399 divided by 11 = 309 seats per train = 51.5 seats per car.

Voyagers:
5240 divided by 20 = 262 seats per train (unchanged)

I'll leave it down to people with more knowledge of how many are 9 and 11 cars to work out the exact numbers for each type.

9 car pendilinos to have exact same seating. So no cramped seats to all those who said they would definitely cram more seats in. Turned out to be vicious rumours again....
As will voyagers, and 11 car pendilinos will have 589 seats, i do not know how this compares but i imagine its the same as now.

 

[All Line Rover]

According to First's websites:

We are undertaking a major refit of all these trains including more comfortable seating areas in both Standard and First Class and improved luggage space, making them even better. We're also buying 11 new trains so that by 2016 there will be 40,000 more seats per day available on our trains compared with 2011.

If they were planning to decrease legroom, they wouldn't say "more comfortable seating areas," as that would be an outright lie! You didn't see FGW claiming "more comfortable seating areas" with the high-density HSTs, did you?

 

[350401]

First also confirm railcard easement to stay - see http://www.firstgroup.com/corporate/our_company/west_coast_FAQ.php

"Will railcard holders continue to be able to travel in the peak periods using "Off-Peak" tickets?

Yes, we plan to continue allowing railcard holders to travel on these discounted tickets during peak times."

 

[All Line Rover]

Will railcard holders continue to be able to travel in the peak periods using "Off-Peak" tickets?

Yes, we plan to continue allowing railcard holders to travel on these discounted tickets during peak times.

WHAT!? Surely this is a joke? (Unless this is a very good PR move and they plan to quietly remove the easement in the mid-2013 fares round).

 

[MK Tom]

WHAT!? Surely this is a joke? (Unless this is a very good PR move and they plan to quietly remove the easement in the mid-2013 fares round).

Continue? I don't think that's possible at the moment???

 

[rail-britain]

Indicates the seating capacity will be 439 and 589 respectively for 9 and 11 car Pendolinos. How much does this differ from the current capacity?

Refer to the dates, First Group are quoting 2011 and 2016
In 2011 there were only the 9 car Pendolino in use

There is no difference, and I have been trying to establish why
Remember the Press Release only advises "new seats" and I suspect this simply means new cloth trim and padding materials (replacing all the seat frames would be incredibly expensive)
After all the seats themselves are not that old, in railway terms
There are also plans to increase the amount of luggage capacity, so the actual total number of seats doesn't appear to change

It looks like First InterCity West Coast will indeed simply just downgrade Coach G (Pendolino) to Club Class, whilst retaining the First Class seats, and on the Voyager no change

Have had to send a follow up question :
Does the May 2016 seat capacity take into account the fleet refurbishment and new seating layouts with increased luggage capacity (Voyager and Pendolino)?

 

[WatcherZero]

According to First's websites:



If they were planning to decrease legroom, they wouldn't say "more comfortable seating areas," as that would be an outright lie! You didn't see FGW claiming "more comfortable seating areas" with the high-density HSTs, did you?

Actually, on the airline seating:

On our High-Speed Trains, you can travel in comfort in ergonomically-designed seats, with space for your personal laptop and refreshments.
•New seats designed to support posture and increase legroom. Flip-down tables for your personal laptops and refreshments. Power points for laptops or mobile phones between the seats, just above floor level. Improved lighting.

 

[F Great Eastern]

There is more legroom in my experience on the FGW HST seats, it's just that the seats are a different shape and taller that makes them seem closer together because they go higher up.

Also we still see the media printing incorrect information:
http://www.birminghammail.net/news/...st-firstgroup-franchise-award-97319-31662751/

Note the last line.

 

[WestCoast]

The FGW HSTs are nice to travel on IMO, quite flashy as well with the TV facility in one carriage.

 

[rail-britain]

According to First's websites:
"more comfortable seating areas"

This is very clever marketing
Take into account the existing rolling stock will have new fabric trim fitted (no need to fit competely new seats)

Next Club Class is introduced
On a Pendolino this will be Coach G, with the table lights removed
On a Voyager this will be the existing Coach D
The service level is simply complimentary hot / soft drinks and biscuits / crisps
This becomes a premium Standard / cheap First Class fare

For Standard ticket holders this becomes "more comfortable seating areas"

However, I am struggling to see what benefits there would be for First Class ticket holders
This suggests the complete removal of the airline style seats and redundant luggage racks , in favour of a complete seat and table layout
These redundant luggage racks would then be moved to Standard

 

[All Line Rover]

It looks like First InterCity West Coast will indeed simply just downgrade Coach G (Pendolino) to Club Class, whilst retaining the First Class seats, and on the Voyager no change

Have First actually said that "Club Class" will exist on the Voyagers? Currently, Standard Class ticket holders have access to four carriages about 90% of the time. Make Coach D "Club Class only," and Standard Class tickets holders will have access to only three carriages on every service. The few services I've travelled on where Coach D was First Class, Standard Class was absolutely rammed, with people standing in the doorways.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The service level is simply complimentary hot / soft drinks and biscuits / crisps
This becomes a premium Standard / cheap First Class fare

With this in mind, I wonder what will happen to Weekend First, unless "Club Class" has no refreshments at weekends?

 

[table38]

Airline Virgin Atlantic has announced plans to run three daily flights between Manchester and London days after losing a train franchise on the same route.

The launch, expected to create at least 100 jobs in the region, will be Virgin’s first-ever short haul service in Britain. Virgin, headed by Sir Richard Branson, will start flying to Heathrow in March with return tickets costing just £95.

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/business/s/1586673_virgin-atlantic-to-launch-daily-flights-between-manchester-and-london---days-after-losing-train-franchise

 

[swt_passenger]

...The few services I've travelled on where Coach D was First Class, Standard Class was absolutely rammed, with people standing in the doorways.

Voyagers won't be covering the same diagrams as now, there's the 11 new 6 car EMUs to consider. So for all we know all the Voyagers might be running as 10 car trains by then, and splitting on route to somewhere completely different such as at Wolverhampton for Shrewsbury.

Your recent experience of Voyager operated services might be totally irrelevant to how the timetable works in 3 or 4 years time, ie from 2016...

 

[philjo]

With this in mind, I wonder what will happen to Weekend First, unless "Club Class" has no refreshments at weekends?

Possibly the same as on the FGW HSTs where weekend first is available but you have to go to the buffet to collect your free drinks on presentation of your ticket. But easier to do so on HSTs as the buffet is between 1st and standard. On a pendo with the current layout the shop is at least 3 coaches away (further on a 11 car set)

 

[starrymarkb]

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/business/s/1586673_virgin-atlantic-to-launch-daily-flights-between-manchester-and-london---days-after-losing-train-franchise

Already discussed further back. Will believe it when I see it (as this defies logic as serious proposal)

 

[Hazlehead]

Indicates the seating capacity will be 439 and 589 respectively for 9 and 11 car Pendolinos. How much does this differ from the current capacity?

A 9 car currently has 294 std & 145 first = 439
A 11 car has 441 std & 145 first = 586

Think got these figures right for 11 car poss couple seats out apologies if so ( maybe 444 in std so =589 so no change in seating)