2x zonal tickets instead of season?

[Lampshade]

Could some kind person confirm the available routes for a Marsden-Manchester anytime day return please? (I'm not being lazy by not doing this myself, well I am, its just that I usually post on a mobile device hence it would be very tedious for me.

Wonder whether via Denton is included?

Marsden > Stalybridge > Ashton-Under-Lyne > Manchester Victoria (Route: Direct)

Marsden > Stalybridge > Manchester Piccadilly (Route: Direct)

Marsden > Huddersfield > Brighouse > Hebden Bridge > Manchester Victoria (Route: Hebden Bridge)

Marsden > Huddersfield > Manchester Piccadilly (Route: Any Permitted - also allows travel via Hebden Bridge)

Marsden is associated with Huddersfield Group and Stalybridge routeing points, which are not valid to Manchester via Stockport on map GM, so no, Denton wouldn't be included even if there was a service.

 

[wellhouse]

I regularly commute from Slaithwaite to Manchester, so I've been round the block a few times on the best Season to get. Until a negative easement was introduced last year, it was cheaper to book an 'Any Permitted' season from Halifax than from Huddersfield, and this was valid via both Hebden Bridge and Diggle. I believe this same easement now also forbids travel from Brighouse to Manchester via Huddersfield.

1. The West Yorkshire and GMPTE zones do meet as shown on the maps at The Great Western (Standedge) so you can use Zonal Tickets for through journeys by bus. However he rail line between Marsden and Greenfield is deemed to be outside both West Yorkshire and GMPTE zones, and the fare between the two is dreadfully expensive compared with WY and GMPTE tickets. The stoppers are pretty empty through Standedge Tunnel, as many commuters west of Huddersfield drive across to Greenfield or Mossley so they need only GMPTE tickets.

2. There are separate fares 'Any Permitted' and 'Route Hebden Bridge' and 'Route Direct' to Manchester Stations. ('Route Direct' tickets for Slaithwaite are offered on the TVM at Oxford Road even though there are no direct trains!)

3. Manchester Stations include Victoria, Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Deansgate, and your season will take you to any of these, unless it is 'Route Hebden Bridge', since Calder Valley services go only to Victoria.

4. Depending where your final destination is in central Manchester, you may find Salford Central a more convenient stop (change at Victoria except for one through service daily), but for flexiblity you should then book an 'Any Permitted' season for Salford Crescent, which will be valid via Victoria or Piccadilly.

5. It is not possible to book through tickets from West Yorkshire to Manchester Central Zone, but there are three free City Centre bus routes that serve Piccadilly (1,3) Victoria and Oxford Road (2) and Salford Central (2,3)

6. PM Peak Hour commuting tips; go for the xx07 from Oxford Road, and you'll almost certainly get a seat when passengers from Liverpool get off a few minutes later at Piccadilly. You also have the option of then getting off at Stalybridge (xx26) for a leisurely pint at the Buffet before catching the xx42 stopper to Huddersfield.

 

[34D]

6. PM Peak Hour commuting tips; go for the xx07 from Oxford Road, and you'll almost certainly get a seat when passengers from Liverpool get off a few minutes later at Piccadilly. You also have the option of then getting off at Stalybridge (xx26) for a leisurely pint at the Buffet before catching the xx42 stopper to Huddersfield.

And spend only 16 minutes in that lovely buffet? I don't agree with that!

 

[SickyNicky]

And spend only 16 minutes in that lovely buffet? I don't agree with that!

Hmmmmm. Pie and peas.

 

[34D]

I regularly commute from Slaithwaite to Manchester, so I've been round the block a few times on the best Season to get. Until a negative easement was introduced last year, it was cheaper to book an 'Any Permitted' se. ason from Halifax than from Huddersfield, and this was valid via both Hebden Bridge and Diggle. I believe this same easement now also forbids travel from Brighouse to Manchester via Huddersfield.

I guess this would be:

Customers travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Halifax, may not travel via Huddersfield. This easement applies in both directions.

I don't see an easement prohibiting Brighouse-Huddersfield-Manchester though - this is 20 1/4 miles. Sowerby bridge-victoria is 28 3/4 miles (can't find a mileage for brighouse-sowerby bridge direct).

As you say though, Salford doesn't get caught by easement 700124.

 

[SickyNicky]

Until a negative easement was introduced last year, it was cheaper to book an 'Any Permitted' season from Halifax than from Huddersfield, and this was valid via both Hebden Bridge and Diggle. I believe this same easement now also forbids travel from Brighouse to Manchester via Huddersfield.

However, you could buy a season from Halifax to Levenshulme for the same price which would be available both via Hebden Bridge and via Huddersfield/Slaithwaite.

Edit: in fact, one could argue that easement 700124 is irrelevant since Manchester Picadilly to Halifax via Huddersfield is within 3 miles of the shortest route (just) and thus the easements do not need to be consulted.

 

[John @ home]

my search was for MSN to MAN (ie Piccadilly) and the result is to Manchester Stations

Yes. For ticketing purposes, "Manchester Stations" is the origin or destination printed on the ticket for journeys to/from Deansgate, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly or Manchester Victoria. The passenger may choose to use any of these stations, subject to the rules in the Routeing Guide.

 

[island]

Yes. For ticketing purposes, "Manchester Stations" is the origin or destination printed on the ticket for journeys to/from Deansgate, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly or Manchester Victoria. The passenger may choose to use any of these stations, subject to the rules in the Routeing Guide.

That's not always the case. Some journeys will print the exact station name (e.g. Deansgate to Sheffield).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Manchester CTLZ is also used as a destination for journeys from within Greater Manchester.

 

[34D]

http://www.northernrail.org/travel/networkmap I noticed this map at a couple of Northern stations.

Notice the map between Greenfield and Marsden.

 

[yorkie]

That is an interesting map. It shows that there is a gap on the route via Walsden, but there is no gap shown on the route via Marsden! That is surely a mistake?

Not only that but it shows Moorthorpe & South Elmsall as only being in the West Yorkshire PTE area, but although they are in West Yorkshire, they are covered by both West & South Yorkshire PTEs for ticketing purposes.

 

[34D]

That is an interesting map. It shows that there is a gap on the route via Walsden, but there is no gap shown on the route via Marsden! That is surely a mistake?

Either that, or else I would read that (on the northern stopper that calls Greenfield and Marsden) the combination is intended to be valid.

 

[wellhouse]

The zones do touch, but through validity applies only to bus services (First 184 Huddersfield - Manchester), with the common boundary at The Great Western stop on Standedge.

There is no validity on trains between the boundary stations of Greenfield and Marsden.

This is in contrast to West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire, who designate common boundary stations so that zonal tickets may be used throughout.

The confusion arises because of the differing details of Rail and Bus boundaries; the Northern map doesn't seem helpul in the circumstances, but contributes more to the confusion!

 

[OwlMan]

The WYMetro website clearly states that the validity of rail journeys is only between stations in zones 1-5.

MetroCard - bus travel and rail zones 1-5

Virtually unlimited bus travel in West Yorkshire, plus train travel between any of the rail stations in zones 1-5.

 

[yorkie]

But how is that any different to a Travelcard for, say, Zones 1-4? Yet that could be combined with a Zones 5 & 6. On their own, each allows travel only for journeys wholly within the Zones.

But that combination is valid for journeys that go between the Zones (and the train does not need to call).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

London Travelcards are valid within the zone(s) noted.

WYPTE passes are valid between stations within the zone(s) noted.

 

[34D]

The WYMetro website clearly states that the validity of rail journeys is only between stations in zones 1-5.

But it also states:

"Why buy a MetroCard?
You can choose a MetroCard season ticket just for bus travel or pick one that also covers rail journeys within the zones you select.

Unlimited travel on train services within the zones chosen"

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But it also states:

"Why buy a MetroCard?
You can choose a MetroCard season ticket just for bus travel or pick one that also covers rail journeys within the zones you select.

Unlimited travel on train services within the zones chosen"

A rail journey "within the zones you select" must logically end before the boundary and logically it can only end at a station. Also, the map on the WYPTE website for the MetroCard shows the limit of the validity is a station, which ever way you go.

 

[yorkie]

A rail journey "within the zones you select" must logically end before the boundary and logically it can only end at a station. Also, the map on the WYPTE website for the MetroCard shows the limit of the validity is a station, which ever way you go.

But this is no different to a (single) Travelcard, for say, Zones 1-4?

 

[barrykas]

But this is no different to a (single) Travelcard, for say, Zones 1-4?

For the purposes of Condition 19:

• A London Travelcard is both a Zonal Ticket and a Season Ticket
• TfGM Traincards and Countycards are neither Zonal (TfGM don't implement a zonal fare structure) nor Season Tickets (as they're issued on behalf of a PTE)
• WY MetroCards are Zonal but not Season Tickets (as they're issued on behalf of a PTE)

Thus:

Two Travelcards (which includes "out-boundary" Travelcards such as St Albans - London Zones 4-6) can be used together in accordance with Condition 19(a), providing they cover the complete journey...which the OPs combination did.

A Travelcard and a point-to-point Season can't be used in combination, except on a train that stops where you change from one to the other.

A Travelcard or point-to-point Season can be used in conjunction with a walk-up ticket, even if the train doesn't stop where you change from one to the other, in accordance with Condition 19(c).

Traincards/Countycards and MetroCards can only be used together in conjunction with a separate ticket between Marsden (the last station where the MetroCard is valid) and Greenfield (first station where a Traincard/Countycard is valid) AND on a train that stops at both, in accordance with Condition 19(b).

Theoretically, a Countycard/Traincard/MetroCard could be used in conjunction with a point-to-point Season on a non-stop train, as they're PTE products. For Greenfield to Marsden, the 7 Day rate is £24.90, which works out to £996.00 a year. That'd make the combined cost around £88 a week, against £67 or so for a point-to-point from, say, Manchester to Leeds.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But this is no different to a (single) Travelcard, for say, Zones 1-4?

Indeed, a Travelcard from zone 1-4 is not valid outside of zone 4 and thus, without another ticket, the passenger's journey must end at a station within zones 1-4. The only time it would be possible to go all the way to the boundary of the zone is where there is a station on the boundary, or where another ticket is held that would cover a journey beyond that boundary in accordance with NRCoC Condition 19.

For the purposes of Condition 19:

• A London Travelcard is both a Zonal Ticket and a Season Ticket
• TfGM Traincards and Countycards are neither Zonal (TfGM don't implement a zonal fare structure) nor Season Tickets (as they're issued on behalf of a PTE)
• WY MetroCards are Zonal but not Season Tickets (as they're issued on behalf of a PTE)

....

Incorrect. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage define a "zonal ticket" as "those tickets which permit travel only within a defined area". A GMPTE Traincard and Countycard allow travel within a defined area and are thus zonal tickets for the purposes of condition 19. However, Countycards are issued on behalf of a PTE and thus may, infact, not be season tickets. Traincards are not, afaik, PTE products and thus are season tickets.

Also it should be noted that a London Travelcard Season Ticket is both zonal and a season ticket, however, a London Day Travelcard is zonal but not a season ticket. For the purposes of this post I shall assume you are refering to the Travelcard Season Ticket.

....Thus:

Two Travelcards (which includes "out-boundary" Travelcards such as St Albans - London Zones 4-6) can be used together in accordance with Condition 19(a), providing they cover the complete journey....

Agreed.

....A Travelcard and a point-to-point Season can't be used in combination, except on a train that stops where you change from one to the other....

Agreed.

....A Travelcard or point-to-point Season can be used in conjunction with a walk-up ticket, even if the train doesn't stop where you change from one to the other, in accordance with Condition 19(c)....

Agreed.

....Traincards/Countycards and MetroCards can only be used together in conjunction with a separate ticket between Marsden (the last station where the MetroCard is valid) and Greenfield (first station where a Traincard/Countycard is valid) AND on a train that stops at both, in accordance with Condition 19(b)....

Agreed. Though the ticket between the two PTE areas need only be valid between a station in the GMPTE/TfGM area, at which the train stops, and a station in the WYPTE area, at which the train stops, along the route.

Theoretically, a Countycard/Traincard/MetroCard could be used in conjunction with a point-to-point Season on a non-stop train, as they're PTE products. For Greenfield to Marsden, the 7 Day rate is £24.90, which works out to £996.00 a year. That'd make the combined cost around £88 a week, against £67 or so for a point-to-point from, say, Manchester to Leeds.

AFAIK, the Traincard is not a GMPTE/TfGM product and could not be used with a point to point season ticket, except where the train stops where they change over.

 

[barrykas]

Incorrect. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage define a "zonal ticket" as "those tickets which permit travel only within a defined area". A GMPTE Traincard and Countycard allow travel within a defined area and are thus zonal tickets for the purposes of condition 19.

We'll have to agree to differ on this one...But I would suggest that if you showed the "man in the street" maps of the London, nNetwork (Centro), TfGM and WY Metro areas and asked which tickets were zonal, he'd say the TfGM ones weren't for the reason I gave.

Using your logic (though I'm unable to think of better wording for the NRCoC so it has the apparently intended meaning, rather than the much broader meaning as written) you could argue that an All Line Rover was a Zonal Ticket!

AFAIK, the Traincard is not a GMPTE/TfGM product and could not be used with a point to point season ticket, except where the train stops where they change over.

Whilst it doesn't appear on the System One Travelcards site, it is (as I'm sure you're aware) in the PTE section in The Manual, and separate point-to-point Season Tickets are shown in the Fares Finder for various "internal" journeys in TfGM land.

Fortunately, the interpretation of Condition 19 doesn't arise all that often at work as we tend to be fairly lenient.

YMMV, IANAL, etc.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Now that GMPTE has morphed into the TfGM is there any official word as to whether or not it still counts as a PTE for the purposes of Condition 19?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

We'll have to agree to differ on this one...But I would suggest that if you showed the "man in the street" maps of the London, nNetwork (Centro), TfGM and WY Metro areas and asked which tickets were zonal, he'd say the TfGM ones weren't for the reason I gave....

Maybe, but the 'man on the street' doesn't have to define a zonal ticket, that is done for him by the NRCoC, and, unlike the 'man on the street', the NRCoC is part of the contract between train company and passenger.

....Using your logic (though I'm unable to think of better wording for the NRCoC so it has the apparently intended meaning, rather than the much broader meaning as written) you could argue that an All Line Rover was a Zonal Ticket!....

Does the ALR cover travel within a defined area? Yes? Then it is zonal, it covers a zone.

....Whilst it doesn't appear on the System One Travelcards site, it is (as I'm sure you're aware) in the PTE section in The Manual, and separate point-to-point Season Tickets are shown in the Fares Finder for various "internal" journeys in TfGM land....

Metrolink is also shown in the PTE section, but I don't think you'd be arguing that a Stoke-on-Trent to Bury Metrolink point-to-point season is a PTE product.

 

[34D]

Indeed, a Travelcard from zone 1-4 is not valid outside of zone 4 and thus, without another ticket, the passenger's journey must end at a station within zones 1-4. The only time it would be possible to go all the way to the boundary of the zone is where there is a station on the boundary, or where another ticket is held that would cover a journey beyond that boundary in accordance with NRCoC Condition 19.

Indeed. However, let's assume that a London zone 1-4 travelcard is a GM system one card, and assume that a London zone 5-6 is a WYPTE metrocard.

The map shows that london zones 4 and 5 touch midway between Oakleigh Park and New Barnet. The northern map also shows that GM zone extends beyond Greenfield, and that WYPTE zone 5 extends beyond Marsden, and does in fact show them meeting (which is logical, as the counties thus meet).

Indeed, the TfGM map http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/Documents/PDFMaps/Rail-A4-colour-May-2012.pdf actually shows a line (beyond Greenfield and Littleborough) marked Greater Manchester ticketing Boundary. there are different versions of the WYPTE map though.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....there are different versions of the WYPTE map though.

Indeed (infact TfGM have differing maps aswell), and while some may show a line carrying on, the one used advertising the product on their own website shows the validity on rail lines does not go to the boundary.

 

[34D]

For the benefit of anyone stumbling on this thread via google (et cetera) I think we can safely say that the only people who should even consider using this combination are those with a thorough understanding of the NRCOC.