First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[MidnightFlyer]

Out of curiosity, which platforms at Euston aren't West Coast platforms? I've boarded and alighted Virgin services at platforms from 2 to 18, and plenty inbetween.

All platforms except 8-11 inclusive can be used by Voyagers or Pendolinos, although Pendolinos can't use 17 either as it's too short and blocks off all access to p18. I believe one of the pairs of platforms (I seem to recall 12 and 13) have had their buffers moved back towards the concourse by a good few yards to allow 11-car Pendoinos to use them.

I find it interesting that First say they will supply longer trains....but where are the longer platforms going to come from,because they will have to pay NWR to extend shortened ones,now across the country there are loads that wouldn't take the extended length trains. So there is one cost that First will have to pay for,then if that happens the track will have to be aligned to the platform(mind the gap)so further cost...just a couple of pointers.Oh and the overheads would have to be re-aligned

SDO? It's installed on 11-car Pendolinos and I think Voyagers and obviously if need be can be specified on new units, thus removing the need for further extensions. You'll find that at the majority of stations, a lot can take 12 cars, which is the maximum I'd expect to ever operate.

Could we see some First West Coast services call at Northampton using paths previously used by London Midland's Crewe to Euston services?

I sincerely doubt it. The timetable is very London-centric as things stand - further it would cost a good 20 minutes, which would render a lot of the WCML speed upgrades pointless as you'd be back to pre-modernisation times!

Has Bolton ever had a direct service to London?

It will have done years ago, however I can't quite remember if it lost its service during Beeching's time or later into the end years of BR.

 

[dvboy]

It is not acceptable for a passenger travelling from Birmingham to Edinburgh, who does not have a seat reservation and boards the train 5 or 10 minutes before departure, to have to wait for at least one hour (Crewe) before getting a seat. Few people aboard the Birmingham to Scotland trains are Wolverhampton commuters - most seem to be travelling to Warrington, Wigan, Preston and Lancaster, with a few more going all the way through to Scotland.

This is off-topic, but I hope First decide to stop these services at Stafford also. Running most of these services non-stop between Wolverhampton and Crewe is frustrating for passengers in Stafford and those along the Trent Valley.

There are enough Wolves commuters using these services, especially the 17:20 and 18:20 (I'm on one of them I'd say on average 2 out of 5 days), because the service before is a stopper and the one after is an even more rammo ATW service.

XC used to have one of their peak time Manchester services non-stop to Stafford, I assume in an attempt to ease overcrowding, but this is no longer. Perhaps that's something First could explore.

 

[rail-britain]

Could we see some First West Coast services call at Northampton using paths previously used by London Midland's Crewe to Euston services?

There is a requirement to call at Northampton, but it is listed as optional for services :
Wolverhampton - BNS - Euston

The requirement is :
2 per day, Monday to Friday
0 per day, Saturday
1 per day, Sunday
11 per week, Monday to Sunday
Stops are defined as Set Down or Pickup only

 

[PR1Berske]

Why? The average passenger knows sod all about how the railways work. Virgin knows this, milks this and then rides the wave of brand awareness, slick media management, and goodwill all the way to the bank!

Read the comments on the BBC web page about this. It appears many villages are short of their idiots this week!

Are you always this insulting or is it just when you're rallying against Virgin and/or ordinary members of the public?

 

[Clip]

Are you always this insulting or is it just when you're rallying against Virgin and/or ordinary members of the public?

He kind of has a point though. Many people believe Branson owns the Pendolinos and so they will leave once the franchise is up. They also seem to think that immediatly customer service will drop,just because its not Virgin trains., which is quite detrimental to the staff who work hard everyday to provide the excellent service.

In fact there is a thread over on MSE where the poster is basically saying that because he once had a First bus pull out on him that their IWC service will be just as bad. I mean how can you possibly fathom that as an arguement for the demise of Virgin Trains?

Heres the thread should you want to read it. post #7 is just amazing.

Whilst im tired and cant find the most up to date PPM figures - up to March 2011 they were at 86.6% which isnt really the all singing and all dancing that people quite make them out to be is it.


So even though this is just a small insight into how people percieve Virgin trains, couple that with a lot of bumph being put about on message boards and forums that are not railway based its eeasy to see why Darlorich said what he said.

 

[Whistler40145]

How are extra paths via Kilsby going to be found with London Midland's Crewe to Euston not going via Northampton along with in the future new Blackpool trains & Preston/Lancaster services?

 

[Aictos]

Does anyone agree that the livery used on First West Coast's rolling stock be the same as First Hull Trains Adelante fleet rather than that on First TransPennine Express's Class 185 fleet?

Seconded, the newish livery used on the First Great Western HSTs is rather smart with a plain blue livery and logo on the power cars with the dynamic livery on the carriages....I hope First do the same on the Class 390s/220s/221s!!!

 

[Whistler40145]

I hope they do go with the latest FGW livery.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Has Bolton ever had a direct service to London?

Bolton, being a Lancashire and Yorkshire station, had a route to London which involved going via Manchester Victoria and round the back to Stockport, where it shunted on to a service from London Road (Piccadilly).
The trains came from places like Blackburn and Colne, even Skipton. Also very slow with all the portion working.
They stopped in the early 60s around the time of Beeching.
From the old Great Moor St station (LNWR) you could also go via Leigh and Kenyon Jn to Warrington BQ and Euston but I'm not sure if they ever did through services.

In the more recent past Cross Country (BR and early Virgin) ran Reading-Birmingham-Manchester-Scotland trains via Bolton, and one of these could well have started from Paddington before the route was cut back at both ends to Reading and Manchester.
I don't think many Bolton folk would have used it to get to London.

 

[Whistler40145]

Thanks for that info.

On the subject of a direct service from Bolton to London, I presume when it first starts it will be a Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston service starting back at Bolton. I do wonder if the service will eventually start back at Preston with at least one train per day starting at Blackpool North (2016 onwards).

 

[rail-britain]

I do wonder if the service will eventually start back at Preston with at least one train per day starting at Blackpool North (2016 onwards).

The Blackpool services commence from 2013
Presumably this will just be a Class 390 service extended from Preston (when electrification is compeleted) or a Class 221 (displaced by using a Class 390 on the Scotland - Birmingham services)

Until electrification is completed I would not expect to see the Mark 3 loco hauled set on this service, but this would be ideal once it is

There is no service specification to either Bolton or Blackpool, so it most likely these will be towards the start and end of each day (positioning moves)

 

[Whistler40145]

Will the new Blackpool North to London Euston service be an out & back run or like Virgin whereby the diagram was Manchester Piccadilly to London upto Blackpool back to London & upto Manchester?

 

[Whistler40145]

In the start, the only problem with Blackpool North if you diagram the Pretendolino stock (that's if First still have a requirement for its use). Also, it would require top 'n' tail 57s from Preston as I understand LCHS cannot be shunt released at Blackpool North, also would it be a heavy load with a dead Class 90 in the consist?

 

[tbtc]

Something more Intercity style. Faster. Better acceleration. It didnt need to be something off the shelf.

But they were introduced for relatively short journeys, not intended for through passengers to London (hence the long waits at Leicester), not getting over 100mph...

The Blackpool services commence from 2013
Presumably this will just be a Class 390 service extended from Preston (when electrification is compeleted) or a Class 221 (displaced by using a Class 390 on the Scotland - Birmingham services)

Until electrification is completed I would not expect to see the Mark 3 loco hauled set on this service, but this would be ideal once it is

Electrification to Bolton won't be completed for a few years yet though?

 

[HH]

I hope they do go with the latest FGW livery.

Well, if they're going to be called Horizon Trains (which name has been registered in all the right places) then this seems unlikely.

It's an interesting development (if they do go with Horizon) because it shows a complete change of heart at the core of FG. No way would Moir Lockhead have allowed a company name without First in the title...

 

[Whistler40145]

Will we see a livery including a Horizon scene with a big Sunshine?

 

[HH]

Will we see a livery including a Horizon scene with a big Sunshine?

I do hope not. It's an interesting choice of name. The Horizon is somewhere that always a long way away - at bit like First's promises?

 

[tbtc]

Well, if they're going to be called Horizon Trains (which name has been registered in all the right places) then this seems unlikely.

It's an interesting development (if they do go with Horizon) because it shows a complete change of heart at the core of FG. No way would Moir Lockhead have allowed a company name without First in the title...

Bus liveries are moving away from the old Barbie design, I think that things are First are starting to finally look less-corporate.

Maybe they are taking a lesson from Arriva who decided not to put their branding on the poisoned chalice that is the XC franchise?

Thinking about it, Virgin were careful to amend their whole image when the 220/221/390s arrived (moving from the black/red livery to a predominantly silver one), maybe First will wait until they've made a success of things before putting their brand on the West Coast Main Line?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I do hope not. It's an interesting choice of name. The Horizon is somewhere that always a long way away - at bit like First's promises?

The horizon is something that is often flat. Unlike First's premium repayments

 

[Whistler40145]

So in the beginning we could see a Pendolino in Red & Silver but with a First Group logo?

 

[PR1Berske]

I do hope not. It's an interesting choice of name. The Horizon is somewhere that always a long way away - at bit like First's promises?

I hope that I'm not the only one who's been trying to make platform announcements in their head with the new name(s) and having trouble making them sound half-way decent. "The 12.01 First Horizon service......" "The 12.01 Horizon Trains service........" "The 12.01 First West Coast Horizon train to......"

 

[HH]

So in the beginning we could see a Pendolino in Red & Silver but with a First Group logo?

Is the red painted?

But yes we shall almost certainly see silver and the F on day 1 for most trains, maybe all. Incoming TOCs like to get at least one re-liveried, but outgoing TOCs have been known to be very awkward about this. It's not unknown for staff to do a relivery but to have to hide the train from outgoing bosses...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I hope that I'm not the only one who's been trying to make platform announcements in their head with the new name(s) and having trouble making them sound half-way decent. "The 12.01 First Horizon service......" "The 12.01 Horizon Trains service........" "The 12.01 First West Coast Horizon train to......"

I don't know, "The late running Horizons Train to London will now leave from Platform 4" sounds just about right in my head...

 

[David10]

So in the beginning we could see a Pendolino in Red & Silver but with a First Group logo?

That's what we will see, even if it is decided to relivery all 76 trains as a priority would take at least a year to complete.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not unknown for staff to do a relivery but to have to hide the train from outgoing bosses.

Normally as long as a set can be spared then it will be taken behind closed doors and reliveried in the last week of a franchise, I'm sure with the consent of management.

 

[HH]

That's what we will see, even if it is decided to relivery all 76 trains as a priority would take at least a year to complete.

Would it? Depends on what is happening with fleet availability, but current levels would seem to allow more than one unit a week from the Pendos.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Normally as long as a set can be spared then it will be taken behind closed doors and reliveried in the last week of a franchise, I'm sure with the consent of management.

Oh agreed, but Virgin might be awkward about it. What happened on XC?

 

[Whistler40145]

As a matter of interest, if the majority of a trains livery is in vinyl & not painted, how long would it take to affix new vinyls?

 

[David10]

Oh agreed, but Virgin might be awkward about it. What happened on XC?

XC had a 220017 revinyled for launch day.

 

[rail-britain]

In the start, the only problem with Blackpool North if you diagram the Pretendolino stock (that's if First still have a requirement for its use). Also, it would require top 'n' tail 57s from Preston as I understand LCHS cannot be shunt released at Blackpool North, also would it be a heavy load with a dead Class 90 in the consist?

Alliance Rail Holdings had proposed using Class 67 with Mark 3 rolling stock

There are two alternatives (as a Class 57 would not be used)
Detach the Class 90 and attach a Class 67, between Preston and Blackpool
Retain the Class 90 and attach a Class 67, between Preston and Blackpool

*The completion date for the electrification Preston to Blackpool is May 2016, that is a long time to be using the above so a Voyager (see below) is most likely

As mentioned elsewhere, it looks more like a cascade and knock-on-effect
The Mark 3 rolling stock would be used between Euston and Birmingham
This in turn releases one Class 390 for use on Euston - Birmingham - Scotland
This in turn releases one Voyager for use on Euston - Blackpool service

Electrification to Bolton won't be completed for a few years yet though?

I didn't mention any specific rolling stock for use on Bolton services, which don't commence until 2016
Threfore clearly this service will use either the new EMU (if electrification is completed in time) and if electrification is not completed then Voyager may be used
Equally, either could be used

 

[David10]

As a matter of interest, if the majority of a trains livery is in vinyl & not painted, how long would it take to affix new vinyls?

A couple of days I would imagine, depends on how many teams you have doing the work.

 

[starrymarkb]

As a matter of interest, if the majority of a trains livery is in vinyl & not painted, how long would it take to affix new vinyls?

I believe it took about a day for the FGW 2+3 HST that was done at OOC, but then the old FGW Barbie livery on the coaches was anti graffiti vinyl anyway so they were skilled at doing wraps.

 

[David10]

Alliance Rail Holdings had proposed using Class 67 with Mark 3 rolling stock

But was rejected I believe as DfT will only give paths to 125mph stock, which even though HST trailers and class 67s are cleared for, can't be granted to a 67 + Mk3 combination for some reason.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I do hope not. It's an interesting choice of name. The Horizon is somewhere that always a long way away - at bit like First's promises?

Horizon is not a happy name in the UK travel market.
Remember Horizon Travel?
Clarksons? (No not him).
Court Line?
The first big package holiday company crash.

Amid the talk of branding, the VT colours are smart and distinctive.
They also link back to BR intercity and LMS red, natural on the route.
In my view there is too much dark blue around. Glum and invisible.
It would be a pity if First just replicated its corporate blue.
Maybe they can find a way to keep the red and just change logos.

The four new 390s are, I think, unbranded (eg no Virgin plate on the front).
Maybe these will be the first to change.