First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[mallard]

Next you'll be telling me that the train companies don't own their own trains, and they can't decide they don't like places, like Birmingham, and redirect all the trains that stop there.

Well, if that were the case, FGW would hardly stop anywhere... Would do wonders for their timetables though!

 

[talltim]

Can someone link me to the BBC page with all the dumb comments? All the pages I can find have no comments

 

[HH]

Have they said they are aiming to get to 70% capacity?

Adding 35% more seats without increasing passenger numbers will reduce overall capacity to 26% (35/135). Getting back to 35% capacity would mean increasing this number by 9 percentage points, a 35% increase (9/26) over the new figure. Be very careful when dealing with percentages.

You missed my earlier posts I guess - the 5.8% growth p.a. that First bid equates to more than double the number of existing passengers by year 13.

Given that not all trains carry the same number of passengers (large understatement), and that they carry different loads along their journey, it should be obvious that on the busiest parts of the busiest services it has be to well over 100%. How do you like them statistics?
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The Franchise System should include the passengers in the decision making process

It does. That's what the public consultation is about.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Can someone link me to the BBC page with all the dumb comments? All the pages I can find have no comments

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19264614

There you go.

 

[HH]

Wrong on both counts. I live in a region served by both TPE and Virgin and have never seen or heard a VT advert, except on Youtube. TPE widely advertise on both TV and radio.

Again this is incorrect. Even on peak trains PiXC on ICWC is < 1%. Friday evenings and Sunday afternoons are very busy but that only represents a very small part of the week. Why would people move from Birmingham - Oxenholme? People travel to different parts of the country without moving there.

How are First relying on HS2 not happening? It isn't scheduled to open until 2026 and that is when the franchise finishes.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

Virgin recently had a generic advert for all their services which featured trains. It featured on TV, but more heavily on internet TV. A smart move - which are young people more likely to watch? This is brand marketing. Every time Sir Beardie appears on TV he is promoting the brand. What non-railway person knows of Tim O'Toole? Speak to a marketing expert and tell him you think First is better than Virgin, if you don't mind being laughed at.

Is PIXC even a measure on VT? It certainly isn't in the new franchise. PIXC is only appropriate for commuter trains. People would have to move because there won't be room to get on the trains at Birmingham, as I just covered above. Either you get that or you don't, but it's true whether you do or not.

HS2 will cause a significant amount of disruption around Euston for years. If that doesn't happen First might argue that it constitutes a change to the franchise. It's a bit of a stretch, but it depends on what their bid says.

 

[TDK]

Looks like a Chester Voyager via Wrexham/Salop/Telford will become a reality.
we shall see

Bob

And where will the stock come from Bob?

 

[tbtc]

And where will the stock come from Bob?

Voyagers (freed up by new six coach EMUs for the Birmingham - Glasgow/ Edinburgh service that currently sees diesel Voyagers)

 

[TDK]

Wonderful news for Shropshire - but why wait until 2016 - stock cascade - IEP - Voyager with an electric coach?

Anything with a pantograph on cannot run between Wolves and Shrewsbury due to bridge clearances unless the bridge is modified or removed it will have to be a non pantograph unit.
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Voyagers (freed up by new six coach EMUs for the Birmingham - Glasgow/ Edinburgh service that currently sees diesel Voyagers)

Voyagers are not cleared on the route as yet and will First want to run more diesels up the WCML or will they even be allowed to?

 

[Derry]

I find it interesting that First say they will supply longer trains....but where are the longer platforms going to come from,because they will have to pay NWR to extend shortened ones,now across the country there are loads that wouldn't take the extended length trains. So there is one cost that First will have to pay for,then if that happens the track will have to be aligned to the platform(mind the gap)so further cost...just a couple of pointers.Oh and the overheads would have to be re-aligned

 

[Stats]

Is PIXC even a measure on VT?

Yes.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/statistics...ekdays-2011/rail-passengers-crowding-2011.pdf
"PiXC has been calculated for the long-distance operators East Coast, East Midlands Trains and Virgin Trains at London for the first time in 2011. Because they operate long-distance services these operators’ services do not usually have standing allowances in their standard class capacities, meaning that their PiXC figures are generally the same as the numbers of passengers standing on their services. East Coast and Virgin Trains both had low levels of PiXC with less than 1 per cent PiXC in both peaks. East Midlands Trains had a high level of PiXC with 11 per cent in the morning peak and 10 per cent in the afternoon peak, despite having a lower percentage of passengers standing than most other operators, with 11 per cent standing in both the morning and afternoon peaks."

 

[The Planner]

Clearance is a minor issue, First will pay for it if required. As for the diesels up the West Coast, it was part of their franchise bid for the Shrewsbury aspirations as they will just extend the EBW trains.

 

[snail]

You missed my earlier posts I guess - the 5.8% growth p.a. that First bid equates to more than double the number of existing passengers by year 13.

Given that not all trains carry the same number of passengers (large understatement), and that they carry different loads along their journey, it should be obvious that on the busiest parts of the busiest services it has be to well over 100%. How do you like them statistics?

That sounds better.

 

[Wath Yard]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

Virgin recently had a generic advert for all their services which featured trains. It featured on TV, but more heavily on internet TV. A smart move - which are young people more likely to watch? This is brand marketing. Every time Sir Beardie appears on TV he is promoting the brand. What non-railway person knows of Tim O'Toole? Speak to a marketing expert and tell him you think First is better than Virgin, if you don't mind being laughed at.

Is PIXC even a measure on VT? It certainly isn't in the new franchise. PIXC is only appropriate for commuter trains. People would have to move because there won't be room to get on the trains at Birmingham, as I just covered above. Either you get that or you don't, but it's true whether you do or not.

HS2 will cause a significant amount of disruption around Euston for years. If that doesn't happen First might argue that it constitutes a change to the franchise. It's a bit of a stretch, but it depends on what their bid says.

Don't get taken in by all this new media stuff and what marketing execs think. Next you'll be telling me Virgin have more likes on Facebook!

If someone is sat in a long queue on the M6 or M62, which is pretty common believe me, and they hear an advert on the radio telling them about the train service, there's a pretty good chance it will mean something to them. They're not going to think - ah but I haven't heard of the CEO of the company so I won't bother!

Yes PiXC is measured on VT. I would have struggled to quote the figure if it wasn't.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....and will First want to run more diesels up the WCML or will they even be allowed to?

First group is to acquire 11 new 6-car electric trains to provide 12,000 extra seats per day (that's over a thousand per unit), if First lose the displaced Voyagers, I can't see them getting 1,000 seats a day from one extra coach.

Logically, First will keep the Voyagers and use them under the wires. No extra diesels have been mentioned.

 

[RobShipway]

We still don't seem to have details from Virgin as to what changes they would have made during the new franchise if they had won, do we?

 

[Whistler40145]

Do we yet have any idea of what type of train likely to be ordered by First Group?

Are we talking of an EMU e.g. Class 379/380 with end doors or a high speed unit similar to the Pendolino?

 

[WatcherZero]

Do we yet have any idea of what type of train likely to be ordered by First Group?

Are we talking of an EMU e.g. Class 379/380 with end doors or a high speed unit similar to the Pendolino?

Reportedly they have an unspecified intercity train from CAF and the baby Pendolinos from Alstom as bidders.

 

[Harbon 1]

Reportedly they have an unspecified intercity train from CAF and the baby Pendolinos from Alstom as bidders.

Why order baby pendo's and not just more 9/11 car ones? Surely this would solve even more capacity problems and free up all the voyagers to go over to XC

 

[jon0844]

Can the shorter 390s also get extended later, or is that not part of the franchise plans?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Whistler40145]

If the Voyagers go over to XC, what do you use on the routes that require diesel haulage?

 

[Harbon 1]

If the Voyagers go over to XC, what do you use on the routes that require diesel haulage?

Since there is only one route I can think of, 57s as usual? Surely the service won't be that intense that they will need more of them back from Network Rail?

 

[swt_passenger]

If the Voyagers go over to XC, what do you use on the routes that require diesel haulage?

Why would they even go over to XC? First have said explicitly that they are keeping them.

Are we talking of an EMU e.g. Class 379/380 with end doors or a high speed unit similar to the Pendolino?

A 6 car 125 mph EMU is what they've said. So it's hardly likely to be a 379/380 derivative, now is it?

 

[Whistler40145]

Sorry, so they are automatically inherited like the Pendolinos from Virgin?

 

[HSTEd]

Why order baby pendo's and not just more 9/11 car ones? Surely this would solve even more capacity problems and free up all the voyagers to go over to XC

Since these baby Pendos are meant for use on Birmingham-Scotland trains that in many cases don't even fill a 5 car Voyager, a 6 car Pendolino with fewer disabled toilets should be easily sufficient.

No point running 3 or 5 extra cars that are almost never needed around.

 

[Harbon 1]

Since these baby Pendos are meant for use on Birmingham-Scotland trains that in many cases don't even fill a 5 car Voyager, a 6 car Pendolino with fewer disabled toilets should be easily sufficient.

No point running 3 or 5 extra cars that are almost never needed around.

I've been on 3 'wedged express' double 221s from BHM - GLC, and if they have extra carriages, they can be turned around onto a longer journey that does require all the 9 or 11 carriages, to give a less restrictive timetable and more flexibility

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry, so they are automatically inherited like the Pendolinos from Virgin?

The WC Voyagers? Just like the Pendolinos, they do not belong to Virgin, so they are not able to be 'inherited from' Virgin.

They are effectively a compulsory feature of the WCML, guaranteed by the DFT, and must be used by the incoming franchisee at least until 2016. This is very little or nothing to do with either Virgin, or First, it was specified in the franchise ITT, and has been public knowledge for quite some time...

 

[Whistler40145]

Sorry, I used the word "inherited", what I meant was that the rolling stock comes with the franchise.

 

[anthony263]

Could we perhaps see some of the Glasgow - Birmingham services extended perhaps to say Reading & Heathrow Airport once the east west railink is re-opened and electrified?

 

[HH]

Yes.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/statistics...ekdays-2011/rail-passengers-crowding-2011.pdf
"PiXC has been calculated for the long-distance operators East Coast, East Midlands Trains and Virgin Trains at London for the first time in 2011. Because they operate long-distance services these operators’ services do not usually have standing allowances in their standard class capacities, meaning that their PiXC figures are generally the same as the numbers of passengers standing on their services. East Coast and Virgin Trains both had low levels of PiXC with less than 1 per cent PiXC in both peaks. East Midlands Trains had a high level of PiXC with 11 per cent in the morning peak and 10 per cent in the afternoon peak, despite having a lower percentage of passengers standing than most other operators, with 11 per cent standing in both the morning and afternoon peaks."

Interesting. You notice the word "peaks". This is a commuter TOC idea really. On VT the busiest time is actually Sunday afternoon. PIXC has very limited validity on IC TOCs.

 

[David10]

Could we perhaps see some of the Glasgow - Birmingham services extended perhaps to say Reading & Heathrow Airport once the east west railink is re-opened and electrified?

Unlikely, XC operator would object and it is probably just as quick to reach Heathrow from points north of Stafford via London even allowing for the change to the tube and Crossrail.