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First win Intercity West Coast franchise

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harz99

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the new destinations are not part of the mandatory service specification (nor are Wrexham and Lockerbie on the current franchise).

In the case of Wrexham/Lockerbie, is that situation to change in the new franchise or are both stations still in a politically driven limbo?
 

sonic2009

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If FWC are going to run services to Shrewsbury & Telford in the near future, would it not make sense to have a :

London - Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury - Gobowen - Wrexham - Chester?
 

jon0844

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You and I know that. But too many either dont know much, or are too in love with Branson. I used to think he was one of the good guys. Ive since learnt he is no different to many others. He is very cunning and clever. Perhaps more so than a lot of others, and thats what others fall for.

I am not sure any successful business man (or woman) can actually become successful by being that nice. Take Steve Jobs as another example. Both have a very friendly customer/media facing persona and gain a loyal following - which makes/made both so successful. But behind closed doors...
 

phil281

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If FWC are going to run services to Shrewsbury & Telford in the near future, would it not make sense to have a :

London - Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury - Gobowen - Wrexham - Chester?

I've heard from a good source that the plan is to run a loop so in effect -

Euston
Milton K
Cov
Bhm NS
Wolves
Telford
Shrewsbury
Gobowen
Wrexham
Chester
Crewe
Milton K
Euston

So it will combine the Wolverhampton and Chester services freeing up Voyagers and Pendolinos for other services.
 

Rich McLean

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I've heard from a good source that the plan is to run a loop so in effect -

....

So it will combine the Wolverhampton and Chester services freeing up Voyagers and Pendolinos for other services.

I would hope that this loop would be clockwise and anti-clockwise?
 

Mutant Lemming

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*Other views about the man can be used, but remember this is supposed to be a family friendly forum. ;) :p

I am not one of Crow's greatest fans but if a company promises more services and more trains and offers to pay more to obtain the franchise then it is highly likely that costs will have to be cut somewhere and that is most likely to be of staff or their wages.

It gets to feel like late 20's USA in this country more and more. There are a lot of people in our great capitalist hierachy that should be in jail by their own rules but they trot out the redscare threat to hide their own graft, corruption and abject greed and use their rotten press to turn working people against each other. While we squabble among ourselves they steal billions of us all.
 

F Great Eastern

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I am not one of Crow's greatest fans but if a company promises more services and more trains and offers to pay more to obtain the franchise then it is highly likely that costs will have to be cut somewhere and that is most likely to be of staff or their wages.

Yet if the premium was lower he'd then moan that the greedy profit driven shareholders are creaming off the profits for themselves rather than the benefit of the service or the taxpayer....
 

ainsworth74

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Can I buy a London to MK return and go all the way?!

Without amendments to the NRCoC (and assuming that it's shown in the timetable as a through service) I'd suggest that yes you could!

Edit: Though I should point out that, personally, I wouldn't try to use such a ticket to make such a journey as I suspect that whilst a strict interpretation might make it valid, common sense would suggest you'd have to be crazy to try.
 
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mbonwick

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Can't be bothered to read through the whole thread.

First's share price closed down 6% - suggesting that the city aren't convinced that West Coast is going to work for them. Although I've nothing against First, it will be interssting to see how long it is before things go to pot.
 

junglejames

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I am not sure any successful business man (or woman) can actually become successful by being that nice. Take Steve Jobs as another example. Both have a very friendly customer/media facing persona and gain a loyal following - which makes/made both so successful. But behind closed doors...

I think you can be nice. Whether as nice as people think RG is, I dont know.
This is mainly how he makes himself seem though. Both Jobs and Branson were seen as the best things around, all because of how they made themself seem. Too many people taken in by both
 

jon0844

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Yet if the premium was lower he'd then moan that the greedy profit driven shareholders are creaming off the profits for themselves rather than the benefit of the service or the taxpayer....

While he definitely gets results for members, he won't be happy until the whole railway is renationalised and we get a communist Government. Even then he'd find something to moan about.
 

jon0844

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Can't be bothered to read through the whole thread.

First's share price closed down 6% - suggesting that the city aren't convinced that West Coast is going to work for them. Although I've nothing against First, it will be interssting to see how long it is before things go to pot.

I wouldn't worry about the short term effect on share prices. They often go in weird directions based on rumours or poor analyst predictions. Today it's fighting the PR machine of Virgin - namely Mr B himself.

I also see strange peaks or falls after company results where I know a lot about the history of a firm and wonder what's going on with shareholders.
 

WatcherZero

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I wouldn't worry about the short term effect on share prices. They often go in weird directions based on rumours or poor analyst predictions. Today it's fighting the PR machine of Virgin - namely Mr B himself.

I also see strange peaks or falls after company results where I know a lot about the history of a firm and wonder what's going on with shareholders.

Their shares are down 23% this year, that isnt just Branson at work. Current dipping started when first rumours they had won appeared in the Guardian before Virgin issued its letter of complaint.
 

fgwrich

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I wouldn't worry about the short term effect on share prices. They often go in weird directions based on rumours or poor analyst predictions. Today it's fighting the PR machine of Virgin - namely Mr B himself.

I also see strange peaks or falls after company results where I know a lot about the history of a firm and wonder what's going on with shareholders.

Sir Fuzzyface isn't taking this very well, is he?

As you say, most of First's shares have probably gone in ups and downs over the past few weeks becuase of the rumours and spin of beardy branson, the unions, media commenty and the associated hearsay.

But it's certainly on the up - even with Tim o Toole / Tim the Toole at the helm - up from 190p to 260p in 1 month. (28.2%) As for the Drop today, this is more than likely down to traders taking profits on the back of the rise than any concern about FWCs long term franchise sustainability.

But as for Firsts shares and future, i hate to bound those words around again but we shall see. I do wonder though if any part is down to Mr o Toole - there's something about his leadership that i find odd, he just dosent seem to have that feeling of prowess compaired to Moir Lockhead - and it could well be that some of First's shareholders seem to think so too.

As for 'Sir Fuzzyface', i think he needs to choose his words a little more carefully considering the not completely rosy past at VT, before trying to make attacks at First. Anyone remember these?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2006/oct/11/transportintheuk.travelnews?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2006/apr/25/transportintheuk.travelnews
 

WatcherZero

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Bloomberg and FT both saying First overbid and thats the reason for the fall, I was wrong, shares arent down 23% this year its 29%. Stagecoach shares rose 0.7% on the news and are 6.1% up on the year.
 
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jon0844

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That almost proves my point. It lost its only remaining train operation and the shares went up in value!
 

junglejames

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While he definitely gets results for members, he won't be happy until the whole railway is renationalised and we get a communist Government. Even then he'd find something to moan about.

All he cares about is his own personal gain, and getting himself on the TV
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Bloomberg and FT both saying First overbid and thats the reason for the fall, I was wrong, shares arent down 23% this year its 29%. Virgin shares rose 0.7% on the news and are 6.1% up on the year.

I havent seen it myself, but apparently on Newsnight, RB as good as admitted that during the initial 13yrs, Virgin would have paid more in premiums. Its only the optional 2yrs that put Firsts' total premium payments higher than Virgins.
 

ainsworth74

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Does anyone know if Branson/Virgin are going to be releasing details of their bid into the papers today as they mentioned they would earlier?
 

HH

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In the context of a long franchise on a very high revenue route the difference between Virgin's "realistic bid" and First's "overbidding by miles" isn't that huge surely?

I've picked on this, but there are plenty of other comments about the bids on the last few pages.

First have put in a revenue growth of 10.4% a year on average. This is made up of 5.8% increase in volume and 4.6% increase in yield (price). Yield could, and probably does, include a better yield management system for Advance Purchase than Virgin currently use, and some changes such as have already been suggested on these boards, such as Super Off Peak/Off Peak. They are talking about reduced anytime fares and reduced first class (not surprising because as I've pointed out on these boards before, it has died in the recession). Anyway the 4.6% looks extremely achievable given that they have RPI+1% increases every year and RPI+3% for the next two. It's the 5.8% that looks rather heroic. Based on the Premium on the First Bid they ramp up seriously in Years 3-6. A cynic might suggest that Years 1 & 2 they spend getting bums on seats, and then the price rises start.

To put this into context, VRG bid for 8.5% growth. I believe the other bidders were in the same ballpark, but VRG had greater growth in the current year, which as they have pointed out, they should have, given they could launch things 4 months earlier. Their Yield would not have been a lot different IMO, which makes growth around 3.9%, meaning First was around 50% higher. That's a lot of bums to put on seats.

Looking at what Stagecoach have said about the numbers in the VRG bid, they are at least as back-end loaded as First, probably more. The fact is that these bids are decided on NPV of Premiums. That means money in Year 3 is worth more than money in Year 13. At least part of the difference in the NPV seems likely to be down to First growing so fast in Years 3-6.

All the bidders were offered 6-car Pendos, and I'm told that three of them took up the offer. E-voyagers were more expensive. There is no other suitable rolling stock, as only tilting trains are allowed to travel at 125mph, and the Timetable would not allow for slower trains on the line.

First almost certainly would cut down the shop - they intended this if they had won XC - and the capacity improvement is substantial. It's also true that the majority of people prefer an at seat service. Such a service would require extra staff, although I would bet that First cut down on staff in First Class, so the net change might be quite small.

21 Gatelines is interesting. WC only has 17 stations. Are DfT including BNS in the 21? I'd say yes, and then there's Euston, Manchester, Glasgow. MK is already gated by LM; Motherwell by ScotRail. That's pretty high coverage. I agree that chances are that extra staff here may be offset by decreases elsewhere. HQ is almost certain - I've seen the numbers compared to First TOCs, and I reckon at least a 20% reduction. It's hard to see where big reductions elsewhere could come from, with them running additional services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does anyone know if Branson/Virgin are going to be releasing details of their bid into the papers today as they mentioned they would earlier?

Already done, on the Stagecoach website. Whether they release more details remains to be seen.
 

David10

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Does anyone know if Branson/Virgin are going to be releasing details of their bid into the papers today as they mentioned they would earlier?
High level maybe, but their won't be a breakdown like we saw from First, Stagecoach will want to keep their powder dry for future contests. Doesn't mean there won't be leaks to the trade press though.
 

HH

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I havent seen it myself, but apparently on Newsnight, RB as good as admitted that during the initial 13yrs, Virgin would have paid more in premiums. Its only the optional 2yrs that put Firsts' total premium payments higher than Virgins.

Well, whoever saw it didn't understand it properly. The numbers bandied about so far (£5.5bn vs £4.8bn) are only for the first 13 Years.
 

WatcherZero

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Already done, on the Stagecoach website. Whether they release more details remains to be seen.

Thanks, interestingly says they would have targeted £45m of savings a year principally from the supply chain and Alstom (presumably efficency improvements in its trains). Since its a market release the information is purely financial though and it doesnt say what they would have done in Firsts place.
 
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