First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[Inox]

Never had any trouble on Virgin trains,
As we all know First Group used to run a franchise in the North West before Northern and they did rock all to improve services or increase capacity.

But, not one to judge before they've had a chance, I can't for First to show us what's up.

 

[cle]

Could Bolton - London passengers even fill a 153? Aren't we better off encouraging them to use Wigan?

How would 11-car Pendos fit on the line through Manchester (Oxford Road) in terms of signal spacing?!

 

[PR1Berske]

Do you ever accept anything you read or are you being deliberately provocative? You don't think Manchester Piccadilly can be extended despite all the evidence to the contrary; now you are accusing First of telling lies about reducing fares.

We should always be wary when a TOC claims it can reduce fares.

 

[HH]

Richard Branson has just been on Radio 4 and he said the press would be carrying details of the Virgin bid tomorrow (to show what goodies the DfT has turned down).

His gist was that First had back-ended its premiums into the last three years, and would need to renegotiate before then, meaning that Virgin would have delivered more premiums.

He was also in one of his incoherent moods, and seemed pretty unhappy.

Looking at the VRG numbers posted on the Stagecoach website (£8.6bn to 2026, and £11.0bn to 2028, equating to £4.8bn NPV and £5.8bn NPV respectively) then it seems like a case of pot and kettle. Indded at first sight the VRG bid appears more back-end loaded if anything.

 

[jimicrowbar]

I wonder if they still intend bidding high for Scotrail. I would asume this is to cover its loss of Scotrail. I hope not as i like working for them.

 

[HH]

so ,actually , they are not making any investment , the DFT is ?

The way I read this is : First spend the £350m then withold it from their premium payments result = 0 ,or at best a trickle of interest or have I missed something ?

Yes; that's the way it works, and the way it's supposed to work. First would have to show that this investment led to a better bid, and they would be on risk for the delivery of the benefits (i.e. Revenue).

 

[tbtc]

According to their document they would actually freeze headcount for the first five years while introducing more trains and services

I'm sure 24 hours ago people were claiming eight hundred jobs would go and services would be cut. Funny how things change

Could someone link me to Bob Crow's apology?

Let's see

I'm sure you said that before?

Never had any trouble on Virgin trains,
As we all know First Group used to run a franchise in the North West before Northern and they did rock all to improve services or increase capacity

You mean First NorthWestern? Who introduced the Class 175s on routes from Manchester to Bolton/ Preston/ Windermere/ Barrow/ Blackpool/ Chester/ Llandudno/ Holyhead?

 

[ukrob]

Could Bolton - London passengers even fill a 153? Aren't we better off encouraging them to use Wigan?

How would 11-car Pendos fit on the line through Manchester (Oxford Road) in terms of signal spacing?!

1). It wouldn't run Bolton to Euston non-stop! If anything it will just be clever diagramming of units to serve an extra destination.

2). Considerably longer freights use it fine.

 

[6Gman]

Very strongly worded statement from Virgin. And I agree with it. Very sad news. Virgin had the best customer service of any train operator. Take a look at their Facebook page - I doubt many toc's would get that many messages mourning their demise.

Not when it rained!

In the very wet autumn a few years back other operators kept services going for as long as they could - Virgin just gave up!

 

[richw]

Most customers will probably not even notice a difference other than a change in paint job.
I previously worked for McDonalds and in my 7 years with the company the franchise change hands 3 times, Customers didnt even notice the different, I expect the same with the rail, If they can get from A 2 B on time they arent bothered who they travel with.
What percentage of travellers regularly use the catering facilities?
What percentage of customers are bothered what the name on the side of the train says?

 

[6Gman]

After what I've seen happen on the ECML with GNER (partly) and NXEC, I wouldn't be surprised if in two years time we are here again asking why First are giving the franchise back, and why they overbid for it.

But of course we will never know whether Virgin might have done the same had they been awarded a new franchise!

 

[LE Greys]

Let's see

That's probably the best comment I've seen on the thread so far.

As usual, the incomers have announced several policies as if it was their idea, 11-car 390s for a start. There are also questions about extra capacity, which seem to be 'creative understanding' by various parties pushing their own agendas, Government, Opposition, Unions, even HS2 campaigners.

I hope that they can freeze walk-up fares without losing revenue, presumably by reducing availability of advance fares. Otherwise...

 

[swt_passenger]

As usual, the incomers have announced several policies as if it was their idea, 11-car 390s for a start.

I don't think that's the case at all. What they simply said that their own 11 new trains would be in addition to the 106 extra carriages that would already be in place at the start of the new franchise. Wording was:

"This is on top of the 28,000 new seats that will be provided by the additional 106 Pendolino carriages that are coming into service in time for the start of the new franchise."

That's a point of fact, not a policy or idea. If some of the media get it wrong that's their lookout...

 

[Class377/5]

I hope First West Coast start using JourneyCheck like FGW, FSR, FTPE and FCC do.

There are plans for much better systems that First's other TOC's use to be applied to West Coast.

 

[Morgsie]

Are the details of the Virgin bid available?

 

[LE Greys]

I don't think that's the case at all. What they simply said that their own 11 new trains would be in addition to the 106 extra carriages that would already be in place at the start of the new franchise. Wording was:

"This is on top of the 28,000 new seats that will be provided by the additional 106 Pendolino carriages that are coming into service in time for the start of the new franchise."

That's a point of fact, not a policy or idea. If some of the media get it wrong that's their lookout...

That's interesting, I'm sure there's a link on here somewhere.

Branson is currently on BBC News washing his hands of the whole affair (next to a nice picture of a 'Pioneer' HST set). He's claimed that he could have got 25 million more passengers than East Coast, and that First have overbid by miles, suggesting that First will likely have to double fares in ten years. He seems undecided whether to take this to court, but probably won't, and suggests that Virgin Rail is over. He always knows when to quit, does he not? One good point he makes though is that Villiars will not be around in 10 years either.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

That's probably the best comment I've seen on the thread so far.

As usual, the incomers have announced several policies as if it was their idea, 11-car 390s for a start. There are also questions about extra capacity, which seem to be 'creative understanding' by various parties pushing their own agendas, Government, Opposition, Unions, even HS2 campaigners.

I hope that they can freeze walk-up fares without losing revenue, presumably by reducing availability of advance fares. Otherwise...

Judging by availability of Advance fares on other First TOCs I would expect the general availability to increase, especially on certain flows or times. I regularly see the direct non-stop Manchester - Euston train in a morning, and it never seems more than half full, if that, especially in First Class. Yet try and get an Advance fare on that.

First like Advance fares and I think can fill lots of the empty seats at certain times by using them more widely. They are also an advantage as ALL the money goes to that TOC.

 

[snail]

As we all know First Group used to run a franchise in the North West before Northern and they did rock all to improve services or increase capacity.

A lot of posters are referring to this, apparently blind to the fact that First currently operate a franchise in the NW and have achieved both those things.

I do agree that FNW were hopeless though.

 

[richw]

Itv news at 6, interviewing people, all the ones they showed were Virgin lovers barring one, who's interview he said he wont make judgment until he experiences the First service, this is the best comment.
Tim O'Toole commented that they will be increasing catering staff. Virgin clearly throwing dummy out of their pram big time from the news

 

[6Gman]

That's interesting, I'm sure there's a link on here somewhere.

Branson is currently on BBC News washing his hands of the whole affair (next to a nice picture of a 'Pioneer' HST set). He's claimed that he could have got 25 million more passengers than East Coast, and that First have overbid by miles, suggesting that First will likely have to double fares in ten years. He seems undecided whether to take this to court, but probably won't, and suggests that Virgin Rail is over. He always knows when to quit, does he not? One good point he makes though is that Villiars will not be around in 10 years either.

Of course, it's easy to claim anything if you've not had to deliver!

In the context of a long franchise on a very high revenue route the difference between Virgin's "realistic bid" and First's "overbidding by miles" isn't that huge surely?

 

[the sniper]

I previously worked for McDonalds and in my 7 years with the company the franchise change hands 3 times, Customers didnt even notice the different, I expect the same with the rail[...]

How are you supposed to know if the franchise owner of a McDonalds has changed? The only easy way I know to find out who owns the franchise is to look on the receipt, but normally you'd have no reason to even look at the receipt.

On the railway, the colour of everything changes and (often) you'll hear the franchise owner's name mentioned during every PA announcement, as will probably be the case with First. Then you've got changes to uniforms, websites, publicity material, ect...

 

[87015]

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

 

[LE Greys]

Of course, it's easy to claim anything if you've not had to deliver!

In the context of a long franchise on a very high revenue route the difference between Virgin's "realistic bid" and First's "overbidding by miles" isn't that huge surely?

That's true.

Latest BBC analysis is that First have to grow the business by 10% a year to make the payments.

I like the new direct services, though. Sounds like they might be useful, and I hope that they survive the first round of timetable changes.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Interesting views from those in Ireland of the situation we have here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056727307

It shows you how the general public, not just in the UK view the system in comparison to the likes of us here. The UK system appears to have a very bad reputation and some of it is unfounded, but generally what is the view on what others think of our system?

Are the remarks about the French system and our own true? If so that astounds me.

 

[Proud Salopian]

A few initial reactions:

So First have announced new services from Shrewsbury to London and your first reaction is to complain.

Transport minister interviewed on Radio 4 stated that the “new routes to Blackpool, Telford and Shrewsbury will be trials”.

Looks like after just half a day my scepticism is well founded!!

 

[387star]

I think the pendolinos will look amazing in the dynamic lines livery, probably done to great effect.

New seats and better catering certainly sound promising as do these new electric trains. So the voyagers will be used for the new services rather than spreading to XC?

 

[PR1Berske]

Transport minister interviewed on Radio 4 stated that the “new routes to Blackpool, Telford and Shrewsbury will be trials”.

Looks like after just half a day my scepticism is well founded!!

Well, quite

And my cynicism is well founded on fares, if we're all honest. There are people on this forum and outside who are saying, quite reasonably, "On the basis of the figures provided, First will have to increase fares in the future".

 

[150001]

I'll miss Virgin; the excellent livery for sure! The Pendolinos will not look right without the badge. Really Virgin have delivered a massive change and if that doesn't win a franchise, nothing will. But good luck to First and I just hope that their new seats aren't the HST ones

 

[WatcherZero]

I'm sure 24 hours ago people were claiming eight hundred jobs would go and services would be cut. Funny how things change

Could someone link me to Bob Crow's apology?

Dont be so quick to lap up the PR, theres quite a few hints in there. Changes to increase seating and luggage space and 'at seat catering' suggests the reality is replacing the shop with more seats and a trolley service. Freezing head count when you should be employing more means redistribution of staff to different jobs like the introduction of gating at 21 stations, where do you think the staff come from if they dont hire more? Likely they will simply not replace any natural reductions of staff.

As to Bolton service, I think it will be one Manchester service changed to a 6 car mini pendo (9 car pendolino when extra capacity needed) and extended to Blackpool via Bolton with an interim service of extending one of the Birmingham-Preston voyagers to Blackpool until electrification arrives in 2016 using the introduction of extra Pendolinos to free up voyagers, this will then switch to extending the crewe service to Bangor as a diesel service.

Breaking: Blackpool service will be one train per day from Dec 2013 rising to five trains per day from dec 2016.

The first model according to their detailed release seems to be pile em high sell em cheap, they claim the existing WCML services are only 35% full and they can increase the density of seating to carry more passengers with 15% lower turn up and go fares. Season tickets will be priced and rise as before.

 

[WestCoast]

Interesting views from those in Ireland of the situation we have here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056727307

It shows you how the general public, not just in the UK view the system in comparison to the likes of us here. The UK system appears to have a very bad reputation and some of it is unfounded, but generally what is the view on what others think of our system?

Are the remarks about the French system and our own true? If so that astounds me.

In general, the railways don't have a great reputation among the general public. Don't forget that many people commenting on general forums aren't frequent users and just go by what they hear from a mate/the paper/the news. The amount of drivel I've heard today on other forums/comment sections proves that many don't understand the system at all (e.g. saying that First will operate a load of old trains e.t.c)

Personally, I dislike the UK franchise system immensely. Despite what some of the pro-privatisation lot would tell you, not one country has followed the UK system of net tendering on a national scale. Why? They see it as poor value for money for the taxpayer and I tend to agree with them.