First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[PR1Berske]

The number of people taken in by the spin, media and PR management from Virgin is frankly incredible (yes that is quite a few of you on here!)

Virgin have done a very, very good job. A lot of people are upset to see them go, as Facebook comments should show you very clearly.

 

[sparks2000]

This has been discussed quite a few times before and there is no evidence of a rule preventing the same company from holding the East Coast and West Coast franchises at the same time. The two routes serve diffrent markets and there is little overlap. Virgin were twice shortlisted for the East Coast franchise despite holding the West Coast franchise at the same time.

I always get confused by these different markets argument. if you want to go to Scotland the country is bigger than just two cities. The onward connections are so slow or infrequent that it matters little if you start in GLA or EDB. The intercity routes are competitors and will be a challenge to each other on pricing of discounted tickets. However, in general terms the rail company split together with the regulations of minimum services have done little to allow free market competion to prevail on any route. True freemarket operators on such valuable infrastructure can probably never work. Remember the bus craziness of the 80s? (which also failed to recognise the cost/value of the road infrastructure gifted to private enterprise).

 

[DarloRich]

Virgin have done a very, very good job. A lot of people are upset to see them go, as Facebook comments should show you very clearly.

well people are wrong sometimes arent they. What examples do you have of thier "very very good job?"

 

[philjo]

Once Blackpool is electrified the new 6-car trains would presumably allow for 2 units to work coupled together from Euston & divide at say Crewe or Preston for Blackpool and Lancaster/Carlisle portions.
Good news about Telford/Shrewsbury.

 

[RPI]

I work for First & have never ever had a problem concerning management. I've found my managers to always be available, willing to help & all round decent people. I'm by no means a company man & can be quite outspoken but I've never had to be whilst working for First. Seems like you got unlucky with the managers you had.

Same here, infact i may go so far as to say they can be a soft touch at times! I've never had a major problem with this lot (First) and am not a company man either but far better than some of the other numpties i've worked for! I noticed Virgin are claiming that they introduced the first fast ticket machine? not strictly true as NSE intorduced "Quickfare" machines!

 

[Zoe]

Not true.
Glasgow services will miss out Warrington and Wigan but there will be a new hourly service from Euston to Lancaster/Blackpool which will pick up these stops (and a couple more).
It's in the WCML RUS (to come in after the Norton Bridge upgrade).
Services to Preston double.

The implementation of the service stated in the RUS was not mandatory though, the bidders were free to propose their own plans.

 

[Scooby]

Branson says he wanted to improve the travelling experience - was he successful?

In my opinion, as a returned rail user, YES, the Virgin Group (rather than the bearded one) has been a positive thing -- but so has FTPE for the services that I use.

The King is dead, long live the King.

 

[sparks2000]

Yes, I'm thinking this too. Off-Peak restrictions have been pushed to the limit on the WCML. Just compare them to the ECML and GWML! Off-Peak passengers from most North West stations must pay the full Anytime fare if they wish to arrive in London any earlier than 11:29.

If "peak" is defined by the number of people wanting to travel then VT has a long peak period. The reality is that the WCML day services have a very high demand for standard class seats even at the higher ticket price. We need to find a way to get more seats on the route without overdoing the cost of supplying those seats to allow the economic of off peak ticketing to be relevant. To do cheaper tickets would require the taxpayer to agree that subsidising private journeys is good for the economy in general.

 

[yorkie]

Even tighter restrictions? If that happened I wouldn't be able to arrive in London until 1pm! :roll: I doubt that's permitted under fares regulation. (If it was Virgin would have done it by now!).

Maybe for places like Crewe to London. But for non-London flows I bet the 0430-restricted tickets become 0930, and Lancaster (and beyond) plus North Wales to London to become just as restrictive as from Preston & Crewe. Plus it will be Anytime for Railcard holders at peak time I bet. Don't be fooled!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The implementation of the service stated in the RUS was not mandatory though, the bidders were free to propose their own plans.

Yes that's true.
Looks like First have plumped for this rather than extra services to Liverpool.
Their press release talks about Nuneaton but not Rugby so I am guessing these trains will not skip-stop in the Trent Valley.
Just guessing.

 

[PR1Berske]

well people are wrong sometimes arent they. What examples do you have of thier "very very good job?"

What examples do you have for it not being?

Look at the reaction on-line, it's predominately pro-Virgin, and predominately anti-First. Why would that be, do you think?

 

[All Line Rover]

Maybe for places like Crewe to London. But for non-London flows I bet the 0430-restricted tickets become 0930

That, maybe. (It's 04:15, by the way.) But at least it is easier to get around those fares compared to fares to/from London.

and Lancaster (and beyond) plus North Wales to London to become just as restrictive as from Preston & Crewe. Plus it will be Anytime for Railcard holders at peak time I bet. Don't be fooled!

I expected both of those no matter who won the franchise. To allow passengers from further afield to travel even earlier is nonsensical, and to allow Railcard holders to travel on Peak trains at a fraction of the normal price severely reduces the perceived "premium" of Peak trains. Don't get me wrong, both perks are nice to have, but they don't make business sense on a line which the government expects to make a profit.

 

[island]

Afaik monopolies such as running both WCML and ECML are not allowed

Is this a fact which you can back up or just your opinion?

It will only be the really expensive Anytime fares that they reduce, and I can almost guarantee that the Railcard concession will end, plus the usual Super Off Peak trick to increase shoulder-peak prices.

I'm not sure they can do a huge amount with that, as the SVR between London and Birmingham/Manchester/Glasgow/etc. is regulated. They can change that to an SSR, but as a former regulated fare they could not make it much more restricted (could push the afternoon/evening peak out of London out from 1845 to 1900). Perhaps they might do that and introduce a new higher-priced SVR with a shorter peak (1630-1830?)

You can add me as another person who will miss Virgin Trains. When will advances come open for the 8th of December? Forum meet on the 2107 Wolverhampton to London Euston (which I think is the final VT service into London)?

 

[RPI]

Lets face it, the WCML was in a state at the end of BR, Connex would have made an improvement on what was on offer back then, i remember it well! Virgin have done good but mostly at the expense of the taxpayer but they have introduced some of the most cramped and uncomfortable trains in history and i just hope that First's refurbishment does something to improve them, already they have said that more luggage space will be added. Virgin have done their bit, they didnt bid enough and now its somone elses turn. All the scaremongering from Bob Crow and his cronies has turned to be nothing but hot air (as usual) and the huge premiums rumoured aren't quite as huge as they made out and it seems that there are many improvements also, lets give it a chance and see!

 

[broadgage]

It says new seats to be introduced throughout the fleet. Will be interesting to see if they go for the Grammer seats used on FGW.

Not certain that they mean "new" as in replacement seats for those existing.
I suspect that they may mean "new" as in additional seats as well as those already existing.
Either by longer or additional trains, or by moving the seats closer together.

 

[Zoe]

Not certain that they mean "new" as in replacement seats for those existing.
I suspect that they may mean "new" as in additional seats as well as those already existing.
Either by longer or additional trains, or by moving the seats closer together.

Transforming the on-board environment with a major refurbishment of Pendolino and Voyager interiors with new seats throughout and improved luggage space

If they were only going to be adding extra seats then it wouldn't be new seats throughout.

 

[Lampshade]

Installation of automatic ticket gates installation at 21 stations, including the major terminals of London Euston, Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool Lime St and Glasgow Central

Ticket gates will not be going in at Preston as long as I have a hole in my arse

I knew FirstGroup would do this, they've bid a completely unprecedented amount so gating is probably the first thing they thought of.

 

[bronzeonion]

Bloody hell, I said afaik meaning 'as far as I know'! I wasn't certain...

 

[philjo]

Hopefully Virgin will have a 1st class seat sale to grab some extra cash between now & December - similar to the one GNER did when they finished

 

[Scooby]

Ticket gates will not be going in at Preston as long as I have a hole in my arse

Why ?

 

[sonic2009]

WOW! Didn't expect that one to happen, goodbye Virgin and goodbye to Sir Richard from the UK Rail network.

 

[cle]

So will there be infrastructure improvements to the Glasgow route, or will the quicker journeys just be down to stopping patterns and cutting NW stops? Shame to think it'll never be better than 4h10 as per the current fast service.

Add me to the list of (actual regular users, not rail fanboys) who are disappointed about this decision. Osborne sticks his nose in and makes another terrible call. Hope these clowns get voted out.

 

[All Line Rover]

First will "improve connectivity with more stops at Nuneaton and Milton Keynes." Good.

First will also offer an "enhanced catering service, with increased at seat catering for customers." So, in contrast to all the speculation, catering won't be scrapped after all.

 

[Lampshade]

Why ?

I absolutely despise the things and what installing them implies - "we don't trust you, we don't trust any of you, you are all accountable to us". You can throw as many straw men at me as you like (a particular favourite of gating proponents is "well you wouldn't expect to be able to go airside without a ticket at the airport"), that's my opinion on the subject.

 

[Zoe]

First will also offer an "enhanced catering service, with increased at seat catering for customers." So, in contrast to all the speculation, catering won't be scrapped after all.

As long as the increased at seat catering is in addition to and not a replacement for a fixed buffet.

 

[RPI]

Ticket gates will not be going in at Preston as long as I have a hole in my arse

better get a cork ready then

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

First will also offer an "enhanced catering service, with increased at seat catering for customers."

Sounds great, but it might just mean a trolley instead of a shop?

 

[RPI]

I absolutely despise the things and what installing them implies - "we don't trust you, we don't trust any of you, you are all accountable to us". You can throw as many straw men at me as you like (a particular favourite of gating proponents is "well you wouldn't expect to be able to go airside without a ticket at the airport"), that's my opinion on the subject.

to be fair the TOC's are probably justified in not trusting most people in todays society, opportunist's are everywhere.

 

[starrymarkb]

Virgin have done their bit, they didnt bid enough and now its somone elses turn.

As was the case with the sale of BMI. I believe they only bid about £50m for the company, BA offered £150m. Lufthansa sell to BA. Virgin kick off.

Interestingly BA managed to negotiate a rebate on the sale if they could not sell BMI Baby (which was hemoraging money), I believe they got £120m back from Lufthansa for that. Assuming Virgin bid on similar terms, if their bid was accepted then Lufthansa would have to PAY Virgin to take BMI off it's hands if BMI Baby couldn't be sold.

Also for some idea how low the Virgin bid was. £50m is about the typical purchase cost of a single B737 or A320 jet.

 

[All Line Rover]

As long as the increased at seat catering is in addition to and not a replacement for a fixed buffet.

Indeed!