DMU shake up

[Rich McLean]

See this document regarding 165/166 clearance:

http://www.rssb.co.uk/sitecollectiondocuments/pdf/reports/research/T787_rpt_final.pdf

Not very promising.

The only place for them really is GWR (or former) lines, and possibly a few others, but getting them cleared elsewhere is likely to be a nightmare.

 

[150001]

None of the 150s will be going off lease! Not till every Pacer is gone! I wouldn't get rid of the Pullman sets and locos; much better than the 168s apart from the armrests aren't hinged. The 168s would be useless on local services too; too slow at accelerating.

 

[swt_passenger]

The only place for them really is GWR (or former) lines, and possibly a few others, but getting them cleared elsewhere is likely to be a nightmare.

Clearing them for elsewhere won't be a nightmare at all. They were cleared a couple of years ago for Redhill to Selhurst depot via East Croydon, and for Guildford to Basingstoke via Woking.

This clearance was apparently done by a paperwork exercise only. The idea that they cannot be cleared elsewhere is not really true; for a long time RUSs showed them intended to be used on the Portsmouth - Cardiff route once released from Thames Valley use.

 

[tbtc]

At the moment (ignoring 158s) FGW have:

• 8x 143 (two short coaches)
• 45x 150 (some two coach, some three coach)
• 14x 153 (one coach)

= 67 Pacers/ Sprinters

They also have

• 36x 165 (some two coach, some three coach)
• 21x 166 (three coaches)

Assuming that all the Thames Valley branches get electrified, FGW would only require about eight 165s to work the North Downs line (Reading to Gatwick), which would leave almost fifty 165/166s free.

So not quite enough to free them of all 143/ 150/ 153s but certainly a step in the right direction. However if they need several units for this "Bristol Metro" then maybe not...

 

[northwichcat]

None of the 150s will be going off lease! Not till every Pacer is gone!

There is a possibly of the next South West franchise operator allowing 150s to go off-lease and keeping 143s - after all what did the Valley Lines franchise do to keep down costs?

 

[YorkshireBear]

It was included in with all the ecltrfication that work around bristol and exeter will be undertaken to imrpove gauge for new DMUs. It's faily obvious what that means.

 

[RPI]

None of the 150s will be going off lease! Not till every Pacer is gone! I wouldn't get rid of the Pullman sets and locos; much better than the 168s apart from the armrests aren't hinged. The 168s would be useless on local services too; too slow at accelerating.

meant off-lease from GW but that is speculation. the turbo's are near certain to be staying with the GW franchise to go to Exeter and Bristol, their 90MPH capability and their tardis effect with carrying large numbers of passengers being amongst the main reasons, withdrawall of 143's in the west is certainly high on the staff and public's agenda as they, along with 142's are just apalling in all ways particularly with their inability to cope with the current passenger numbers let alone with future increases. A single 153 can almost carry as many pax as a 2 car 143 in practice! As for being out of gauge, not really an issue, a 165 went to Plymouth in about 1993 on a test run without any issues and will be mostly a paperwork excercise.

 

[tbtc]

Gauge issues might not be a problem on the main lines, but what about some of the tight branches in Devon/ Cornwall? Is it the Looe branch that has the really tight curve?

 

[LE Greys]

Gauge issues might not be a problem on the main lines, but what about some of the tight branches in Devon/ Cornwall? Is it the Looe branch that has the really tight curve?

IIRC, that was a standard gauge line from the outset. The former LSWR Tarka Line and Gunnislake branch might be difficult as well.

 

[Rich McLean]

IIRC, that was a standard gauge line from the outset. The former LSWR Tarka Line and Gunnislake branch might be difficult as well.

I would assume lines which cannot be cleared would be 150/153 Operated, such as the Tarka line and the Gunnislake branch


Saying that, the 158's would be ideal for Bristol - Penzance services if crews down that way can be trained to sign them

 

[anthony263]

I would assume lines which cannot be cleared would be 150/153 Operated, such as the Tarka line and the Gunnislake branch


Saying that, the 158's would be ideal for Bristol - Penzance services if crews down that way can be trained to sign them

I would agree a class 158 would be great for FGW's Bristol - Penzance services although at the moment the units are interworked to work on some of the branch lines and local services down the west country which would not be good use of a class 158.

Still a 2 or 3 carriage class 165 would be great for use on the Penzance - Plymouth/Exeter local services particulary during the summer where they can cope with the crouds.

 

[David Goddard]

See this document regarding 165/166 clearance:

http://www.rssb.co.uk/sitecollectiondocuments/pdf/reports/research/T787_rpt_final.pdf

Not very promising.

One thing missing from the Cl165 map- The Chiltern lines! :-?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Saying that, the 158's would be ideal for Bristol - Penzance services if crews down that way can be trained to sign them

Here Here!

 

[158722]

At the moment (ignoring 158s) FGW have:

• 8x 143 (two short coaches)
• 45x 150 (some two coach, some three coach)
• 14x 153 (one coach)

= 67 Pacers/ Sprinters

They also have

• 36x 165 (some two coach, some three coach)
• 21x 166 (three coaches)

Assuming that all the Thames Valley branches get electrified, FGW would only require about eight 165s to work the North Downs line (Reading to Gatwick), which would leave almost fifty 165/166s free.

So not quite enough to free them of all 143/ 150/ 153s but certainly a step in the right direction. However if they need several units for this "Bristol Metro" then maybe not...

Yes, but look at the number of coaches involved - the 165/166 fleet totals 151 coaches, which even minus 24 (8x 3 car sets for North Downs) leaves 127. The Pacer/150/153 fleet seems to tally up to 124. Surely some re-drafting of Bristol-Cardiff area services will allow some to be worked by EMUs once the wires go up, so a GW fleet of 158s and 165/166s seems possible.

 

[tbtc]

Yes, but look at the number of coaches involved - the 165/166 fleet totals 151 coaches, which even minus 24 (8x 3 car sets for North Downs) leaves 127. The Pacer/150/153 fleet seems to tally up to 124. Surely some re-drafting of Bristol-Cardiff area services will allow some to be worked by EMUs once the wires go up, so a GW fleet of 158s and 165/166s seems possible.

True, but a two/three coach 165/166 can't be split up to replace two or three shorter DMUs, so on lines where 153s operate singly (Falmouth?) you'd have to use a much bigger 165 to replace each one

EMUs replacing DMUs on the Cardiff - Bristol part of Cardiff - Portsmouth will free some 158s up, but then there's suggestion of more services that may suit 158s elsewhere in FGW-land so they may not be "spared" to replace Pacers/ 153

 

[sprinterguy]

Yes, but look at the number of coaches involved - the 165/166 fleet totals 151 coaches, which even minus 24 (8x 3 car sets for North Downs) leaves 127. The Pacer/150/153 fleet seems to tally up to 124. Surely some re-drafting of Bristol-Cardiff area services will allow some to be worked by EMUs once the wires go up, so a GW fleet of 158s and 165/166s seems possible.

Unless, as has been mentioned by others, it is not possible for Network Turbos to operate over the branches in Devon and Cornwall. As well as the strong likelihood of there being gauging problems on these restricted single track routes, there are platform lengths to consider. Although if they are all able to accomodate a pair of 150s, or even just a pair of 153s, then it may not be a completely insurmountable problem on it's own.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

True, but a two/three coach 165/166 can't be split up to replace two or three shorter DMUs, so on lines where 153s operate singly (Falmouth?) you'd have to use a much bigger 165 to replace each one

And that as well!

 

[richw]

True, but a two/three coach 165/166 can't be split up to replace two or three shorter DMUs, so on lines where 153s operate singly (Falmouth?) you'd have to use a much bigger 165 to replace each one

EMUs replacing DMUs on the Cardiff - Bristol part of Cardiff - Portsmouth will free some 158s up, but then there's suggestion of more services that may suit 158s elsewhere in FGW-land so they may not be "spared" to replace Pacers/ 153

153s don't operate singularly to Falmouth any more. Falmouth is operated by 1 x 150 and 2 x 153 joined together, although should have become 2 x 150 at some time this year, possibly already happened?

 

[tbtc]

153s don't operate singularly to Falmouth any more. Falmouth is operated by 1 x 150 and 2 x 153 joined together, although should have become 2 x 150 at some time this year, possibly already happened?

Cheers Rich - I've not been on the branch since the half hourly service.

What are single 153s used on in FGW-land these days (if anything)?

 

[fgwrich]

Cheers Rich - I've not been on the branch since the half hourly service.

What are single 153s used on in FGW-land these days (if anything)?

Summer wise, i don't think theres much. Winter wise, then single 153s tend to find uses on the branches, Looe being one of them and St Ives? may still be another of them.

 

[richw]

The 153s are all running in partnership with 150s on the summer timetable, don't recall seeing either unit pass my house without the other in tandem since the school holidays started!

 

[Lrd]

The few services that start and terminate at Southampton Central are often single 153s.

 

[CC 72100]

Summer wise, i don't think theres much. Winter wise, then single 153s tend to find uses on the branches, Looe being one of them and St Ives? may still be another of them.

I've never seen any single 153s with FGW myself, mainly used on strengthening duties. 153 + 143/150 (both types) are fairly common.

Had 2x153 on the Swindon - Cheltenham shuttle the other week. Didn't expect it to be that, don't know why, I just didn't think they stuck them on that working!

 

[Bevan Price]

If you go to this Network Rail site page:-

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse... Group 3 - Passenger Rolling Stock and Depots

Download the pdf file from the link to "Network RUS:Passenger Rolling Stock", and in the Appendices near the end of the file, you will find lists of dmu and emu classes with nominal seating capacity, weight, maximum speed, etc.

 

[Drsatan]

I've never seen any single 153s with FGW myself, mainly used on strengthening duties. 153 + 143/150 (both types) are fairly common.

Had 2x153 on the Swindon - Cheltenham shuttle the other week. Didn't expect it to be that, don't know why, I just didn't think they stuck them on that working!

I've seen single 153s in use on the Gunnislake & Looe branches (someone wrote a letter to RAIL stating that there was a minor riot at Liskeard station when there were too many passengers for the single 153 working the branch that day, meaning a bus had to be ordered ), and occasionally on the 1227 Southampton Central - Great Malvern.

I've also seen a pair of 153s on the 1740 Cheltenham Spa to Southampton Central, where one 153 detaches at Westbury

 

[LE Greys]

Unless, as has been mentioned by others, it is not possible for Network Turbos to operate over the branches in Devon and Cornwall. As well as the strong likelihood of there being gauging problems on these restricted single track routes, there are platform lengths to consider. Although if they are all able to accomodate a pair of 150s, or even just a pair of 153s, then it may not be a completely insurmountable problem on it's own.

Unless platform lengths have been reduced, that should not be too much of a problem. Many of these lines were built with very generous platforms to accommodate holiday excursions, through coaches and so on. However, the unused bit of platform might need restoration, or signals might need repositioning. IIRC, the Falmouth branch had some work a few years ago to extend platform lengths to accommodate a pair of 150s.

 

[DavidBrown]

I would assume lines which cannot be cleared would be 150/153 Operated, such as the Tarka line and the Gunnislake branch

The Tarka Line should mostly be OK as it was built either as double track or with space for a second track - plus you've got no platforms on tight curves, and 10 miles of the line are being rebuilt this winter so I'd assume that a major scheme like that would take this sort of thing into account. The one big disadvantage for the Tarka Line is that you'd probably need to resignal it - do 165/166s have opening windows so that the driver can collect/hand back a token?

The Gunnislake branch is a bit more complex. They should be fine up to Bere Alston, and then on the new Tavistock line when built, but obviously getting through Calstock to Gunnislake would be, erm, fun! I've always reckoned that when Tavistock is reopened, it should have a standalone service to Plymouth (possible with a 165/166), with Calstock and Gunnislake getting a shuttle service, similar to the Stourbridge branch which uses the Class 139.

 

[tbtc]

I suppose that one drawback of the 165/166s on routes with such "seasonal" demand is that its a lot harder to add/subtract a coach in the summer/winter (compared to sticking a 153 onto a 150)

 

[Class172]

Cheers Rich - I've not been on the branch since the half hourly service.

What are single 153s used on in FGW-land these days (if anything)?

Single 153s make it up to Great Malvern/Worceser on services from Westbury/Weymouth - do they get coupled to another unit somewhere along the route (I hope so!)?

 

[Rich McLean]

Single 153s make it up to Great Malvern/Worceser on services from Westbury/Weymouth - do they get coupled to another unit somewhere along the route (I hope so!)?

It all depends on stock availability, so in the most part yes, on the rare occasion where there is no spare stock, it's not unknown for them to operate alone on a through route. Not so common these days though

 

[fgwrich]

RE Single 153s - Make that, including the Devon Metro local services too.

(Whichever 153 it is, just passed the Dawlish webcam on the delayed 16:05 Service to Plymouth)

 

[Rich McLean]

RE Single 153s - Make that, including the Devon Metro local services too.

(Whichever 153 it is, just passed the Dawlish webcam on the delayed 16:05 Service to Plymouth)

Point proven. If there is no spare stock, that's what happens