South Wales electrification

[swt_passenger]

The Great Western franchise consultation says that there will be one IEP service per day to Carmathen.

It does, doesn't it.

I wonder if it's the draft consultation that is wrong, or all the armchair IEP experts posting here and elsewhere?

 

[Xavi]

It does, doesn't it.

I wonder if it's the draft consultation that is wrong, or all the armchair IEP experts posting here and elsewhere?

Doesn't the consultation mention IEP but then say alternate rolling stock can be considered by the successful franchisee... Keeping options open.

 

[Zoe]

Doesn't the consultation mention IEP but then say alternate rolling stock can be considered by the successful franchisee... Keeping options open.

It says that about services that are not listed as IEP, asking the bidders to consider if HSTs should be life extended or alternative stock used. It does also say though that the long time IEP deployment may be different to the current business case assumption and that the bidders will need to determine how best to optimize the fleet deployment.

 

[anthony263]

With the midland mainline being electrified perhaps some additional electric highspeed trains could be ordered with some class 222's cascaded to the great western to work services to places such as Carmarthen in addition to the IEP units.

Personally I would rather see the electro diesel class 222's work services to Worcester and the bi-mode IEP scrapped for the Great Western which could cut the cost of the new trains.

 

[krus_aragon]

It does, doesn't it.

I wonder if it's the draft consultation that is wrong, or all the armchair IEP experts posting here and elsewhere?

I dimly remember that in the early IEP discussions here, the opinion was that it may be possible to clear the route to Carmarthen, but that the Pembroke service that was unfeasible due to the curvature or Narbeth Tunnel.

 

[anthony263]

I dimly remember that in the early IEP discussions here, the opinion was that it may be possible to clear the route to Carmarthen, but that the Pembroke service that was unfeasible due to the curvature or Narbeth Tunnel.

I do remember a statement made by network rail about 2 years ago in the south wales evening post that IEP would be cleared to work to Carmarthen.

Correct the sharp curve and the tunnel at Narbeth would prevent IEP being cleared to work on the Pembroke Dock branch. You can see how tight it is with the class 175's and HST's

 

[Rhydgaled]

if those figures are accurate really they should order an entirely bi-mode fleet, as they claim that energy use by the two types will be the same under electric power.

I don't think they ever claimed that. In Modern Railways August 2011, there was a DfT claim that fuel costs for a 5-car bi-mode under the wires were 2 pence per mile higher than the 5-car electric. I think those figures were later found to be inaccurate, but even given they seemed to be making up numbers DfT were still admitting bi-mode would cost more.

There are 3 currently unwired ECML desinations in England; Hull, Lincoln and Harrogate. Hull seems to be a strong candidate for inclusion in the TP North electrification and Harrogate makes a strong case as a commuter line although nothing specific has been announced. If Harrogate were wired, and if Lincoln were served by the EMT franchise (should it retain some 222s) then the EC franchise would not require bimodes for its English routes.

The EC franchise has only one train per day on each of those routes anyway. Even if none of them were being wired, I'd say the frequency doesn't warrant bi-modes, just drag an EMU the last little bit with a diesel loco. You'd need 1 loco max in service for each of those three, whereas you'd need to build rather more bi-modes since the diesels would be carried under the wires to London and back. I think Scotland are talking about wires further north too, and the ammount of under-wires running from KGX to Scotland, even for a bi-mode, is obscene. Please just attach a diesel loco when the wires run out (or order more electric IEPs, to cover some IC225 diagrams, and use the released IC225s on the Inverness and Aberdeen runs with a loco swap for a TDM-fitted diesel somewhere around Edinbrough).

PAD - Worcester/Hereford and the proposed PAD - Westbury semi-fast are the only places proposed for bi-mode IEP that ever made sense in my opinion.

I don't understand why GC (and FHT for that matter) haven't thought about adding a few extra 5-coach, bi-mode units to the ECML, rather than ordering the supposed China-sourced Polaris units. Surely it would be cheaper, plus it would make maintenance and breakdowns easier to deal with. But what could be done with the 180s?

If Hull gets TPE wires, then hopefully Hull Trains would get some electric units. They might not have the money for new stock though and just run their 180s under the wires. Some IEPs might be a good idea if they can share depot facilities with EC. Grand Central would probably need bi-modes though, or would stick with 180s and IC125s. I think the extensions of the proposed PAD - Westbury semi-fast would be a good place to put any class 180s that are released.

It does, doesn't it.

I wonder if it's the draft consultation that is wrong, or all the armchair IEP experts posting here and elsewhere?

Most of what I've seen (and extracted from DfT representatives over e-mail) has suggested that PAD - Carmarthen is planned to be bi-mode IEP, and that the line would be cleared. The lines west of Carmarthen (to Pembroke & Tenby, and to Milford Haven where some would like to see the Carmarthen trains extended to one day, and to Fishguard where any erupting Icelandic volcanos could prompt a desire for short-term reinstatment of through London trains) however are not on any list I've seen for IEP clearance, Pembrokeshire is an IEP no-go zone.

So, Swansea - Carmarthen (and maybe the Swansea District Line for diversions) is being cleared for one train a day (maybe three on Sundays) (the two extras on summer Saturdays are out, since they go to Pembs). Completly mad, use 23m coaches to save the clearance money and allow the trains to continue into Pembrokeshire! If the service to Carmarthen has to be bi-mode, then can it be an extension of the PAD - Cardiff trains rather than PAD - SWA services (then it can run via the SDL instead of via Swansea). My prefered option is to attach a loco at Swansea (or use a push-pull LHCS set and swap electric loco for diesel loco there), but this means going via Swansea as it is probably rather harder to mess around with locos at Cardiff.


Is MML and Swansea wiring confirmed now? Or are you lot just guessing that will come out in Monday/Tuesday's HLOS anouncment?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is MML and Swansea wiring confirmed now? Or are you lot just guessing that will come out in Monday/Tuesday's HLOS anouncment?

I think the general view is that the vast number of media reports can't all be wrong, someone has been well briefed.

 

[anthony263]

Is MML and Swansea wiring confirmed now? Or are you lot just guessing that will come out in Monday/Tuesday's HLOS anouncment?

I was told it was near certain that the Cardif Valley lines electrification was being given the go ahead along with the wires to Swansea and fair play my source has been pretty much on the ball so far.

I do think we could still see some surprises tommorow however particulary if the wires will be going to Cheltenham & Severn Beach like what is being rumoured.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think the general view is that the vast number of media reports can't all be wrong, someone has been well briefed.

I've missed any media reports there have been, and I haven't noticed anyone posting any links to media reports that say the MML will be wired.

 

[anthony263]

I've missed any media reports there have been, and I haven't noticed anyone posting any links to media reports that say the MML will be wired.

There is an article on the BBC news website shouldn't take you long to find it.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've missed any media reports there have been, and I haven't noticed anyone posting any links to media reports that say the MML will be wired.

There's probably about half a dozen media links in this forum alone over the last few days, such as this one:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=68445

Or this one:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=68178

Currently the adjacent two threads to this one in the infrastructure index...

 

[tbtc]

I've missed any media reports there have been, and I haven't noticed anyone posting any links to media reports that say the MML will be wired.

The point is that the planned announcement will be on Monday, that's why nothing is official just yet.

But I'd take an educated guess that there will be "jam tomorrow" on the MML and GWML

 

[Rhydgaled]

There is an article on the BBC news website shouldn't take you long to find it.

It sounds promissing. I just hope the articles have got it right and all the MML, along with Swansea, do get wires.

If it all goes ahead, let's hope DaFT realise it means they don't need bi-mode IEP anymore, ex-MML 222s to the rescue (though I would guess there would be some EMT Intercity services that extend beyond wires, for which they made need to keep some 222s). Shame the article mentions a western access line to Heathrow but not wires from Crewe to Chester (which might get the ICWC 221s released as more IEP-bi-mode show-stoppers). I still think the price quoted for western Heathrow access (in the hundreds of millions wasn't it?) is rather steep compared to my idea of a Reading - Heathrow service with reversal just after airport junction (it might mean adding a turnback facility, but that can't cost as much as £100m can it?).

It will also be interesting to see how much of ValleyLines is included in the wiring plans.

 

[MarkyT]

So, Swansea - Carmarthen . . . is being cleared for one train a day. Completly mad, use 23m coaches to save the clearance money and allow the trains to continue into Pembrokeshire!

Surely the level of insanity is directly related to the actual cost - clearance for 26m vehicles could be quite cheap on fairly straight sections, or even 'free' subject to the admin costs.

 

[swt_passenger]

The point is that the planned announcement will be on Monday, that's why nothing is official just yet.

But I'd take an educated guess that there will be "jam tomorrow" on the MML and GWML

That was my main point - there's no smoke without fire.

Google found about 300 newspapers running the Press Association's story about electrification of the MML. Editors across the country must have assumed it was a valid story.

Either that are they are like trainline sheep...

 

[Michael.Y]

It will also be interesting to see how much of ValleyLines is included in the wiring plans.

I can't imagine it'd be a half assed job.... erm.. well we'll see, but I expect everything radiating out of Cardiff Central and Queen Street. The only exception I can think of could possibly be the Ebbw Vale Branch, simply because they haven't even got around to sorting out the Newport-bound points issue yet.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Surely the level of insanity is directly related to the actual cost - clearance for 26m vehicles could be quite cheap on fairly straight sections, or even 'free' subject to the admin costs.

Aye, but an article from ages ago here raises concerns about the western exit of Swansea station. The line has rather alot of curved track too, including Ferryside station which I think is on a slight curve (though once you're out of Swansea I think the curves are quite gentle).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't imagine it'd be a half assed job.... erm.. well we'll see, but I expect everything radiating out of Cardiff Central and Queen Street. The only exception I can think of could possibly be the Ebbw Vale Branch, simply because they haven't even got around to sorting out the Newport-bound points issue yet.

Everything north of Queen Street is probably a given, as is CDF to Barry Island and Penarth.

The debate on this fourm seems to be whether Maesteg - Bridgend, Barry - Bridgend and, as you say, Ebbw Vale, are included. Since Cardiff Central doesn't have bay platforms (although platform 0 I think I've read on here is only signalled for passenger use in one direction), leaving any of those routes out may cause some issues, or something on the other side of Cardiff will be left unwired for services to run through to.

 

[Ivo]

Could we potentially see the long-rumoured Platform 5 finally brought into use a Cardiff Central? That would negate most of the likely capacity issues. This would be a nice (and comparatively cheap) addition to the programme, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Otherwise, does anyone know when the announcement is expected [as in the exact time]? Or is it just a case of "when it comes"?

 

[anthony263]

Could we potentially see the long-rumoured Platform 5 finally brought into use a Cardiff Central? That would negate most of the likely capacity issues. This would be a nice (and comparatively cheap) addition to the programme, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Otherwise, does anyone know when the announcement is expected [as in the exact time]? Or is it just a case of "when it comes"?

I think the idea of having a bay platform in between Platforms 3 + 4 has been dropped although they are intending on building a new platform 8 for the valley lines services where the riverside siding is at the moment.

Platform 6 would then be able to be used by mainline services coming in from the Newport direction which could help when Cardiff central becomes congested and trains are held outside the station awaiting a platform

Another plan was to have platforms 0-2 become bi-directional which should help particulary when Ebbw Vale - Cardiff services could quickly reverse perhaps saving 1 unit which could be used elsewhere.

I am not sure how much it will cost for the passing loop on the Ebbw Vale branch to be extended along with extending the track north of Ebbw Vale parkway perhaps the WG could looking at using money from the EU. I believe the signalling issues at Gaer Jct near Newport have been sorted so the only things preventing a Newport - Ebbw Vale service are:

1.) Lack of available units
2.) passing loop needs to be extended.

As for the curves as you come out of Swansea particulary the curve on the LLandore viaduct I would hope Network rail have already looked at this although I do think some class 222's would be ideal for some services to south wales from London.

Hopefully all these problems will be sorted by the time the wires reach Cardiff

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Could we potentially see the long-rumoured Platform 5 finally brought into use a Cardiff Central? That would negate most of the likely capacity issues. This would be a nice (and comparatively cheap) addition to the programme, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Platform Five, the filled in Bay between 3 & 4, is part of the plan for increased capacity which also includes a new through platform south of 6 & 7. Platform Five has been earmarked for the enhanced Maesteg service, when it starts.

It's really odd that when the station was refurbished, by Railtrack, a few years ago, Platform Five was opened out and promptly filled in again.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I am not sure how much it will cost for the passing loop on the Ebbw Vale branch to be extended along with extending the track north of Ebbw Vale parkway perhaps the WG could looking at using money from the EU. I believe the signalling issues at Gaer Jct near Newport have been sorted so the only things preventing a Newport - Ebbw Vale service are:

The current WG has committed to spending EU money on roads not rail and hinting more EU £ will be spent on the A465 road.

 

[Michael.Y]

Money is somehow being found to run an empty bus to and from Rogerstone Station from Newport so the sooner the rail link is restored the better.

It also means I wouldn't have to go via Cardiff just to get to my favourite snooker hall!

 

[djp852795]

Something may be announced this week... 17th.

 

[PhilipW]

Interviewed on the Radio 4 'Today' programme this morning, Justine Greening has confirmed that electrification will be extended to Swansea. Great

 

[gwr4090]

Something may be announced this week... 17th.

Maps published by the DfT this morning Mon 16 July confirm that electrification is to be extended to Swansea along with the entire (?) Valleys network including Ebbw Vale, the Vale of Glamorgan and Maesteg. More detail will appear in the CP5 HLOS to be announced today.

See http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012/map-hlos-electrification.pdf

 

[HSTEd]

Interviewed on the Radio 4 'Today' programme this morning, Justine Greening has confirmed that electrification will be extended to Swansea. Great

Was this the interview with her refusing to say how these upgrades would be funded and appeared to be slightly tripped up that the presenter knew that only half of the headline figure was new money?

And then refused to consider renationalisation because the industry needed stability and no reforms at the present time..... which is rather odd considering.

EDIT: also appeared to imply that track access charges will be sky-rocketing, does anyone know when the CP5 track access charge documentation will be appearing? Could be some major increases that chance some of my statistical projections.

 

[WatcherZero]

You should have seen her Sky interview, she appeared well 'briefed' by her department on the headlines but didnt understand the details, for example she struggled when asked whether passengers contribute to the cost showing she didnt understand the flow of money in the rail industry.

 

[swt_passenger]

More detail will appear in the CP5 HLOS to be announced today.

See http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012/map-hlos-electrification.pdf

The HLOS document link was above the maps at about 0800 this morning, you probably skipped past it when you posted the above?

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012/railways-act-2005.pdf

 

[WatcherZero]

No thats a summary, the actual HLOS is embargoed until 10:30 after the PM and deputy PM give their speech.