Welsh Minister explains why Cambrian is not hourly

[merlodlliw]

If there isn't the capacity rolling stock-wise to lengthen or run extra services, would it be an idea for ATW to order extra 175s from Alstom, to cascade more 158s from the Welsh Marches and Birmingham - Holyhead to the Cambrian?

ATW wont order any stock unless some one else pays for it.

Bob

 

[PHILIPE]

Anyway. DFT procure new stock not the TOCs. I think this applies to ATW even though WG has transport devolved.

 

[Rhydgaled]

If there isn't the capacity rolling stock-wise to lengthen or run extra services, would it be an idea for ATW to order extra 175s from Alstom, to cascade more 158s from the Welsh Marches and Birmingham - Holyhead to the Cambrian?

As far as I've read on fourms, there aren't many 158 diagrams that run anything other than Holyhead - Birmingham and Cambrian services, the main exception being a handful in south-East Wales (was Maesteg - Cheltenham but I think have now been mixed in with Ebbw Vale services). Some time ago I had an idea of releasing 158s for elsewhere in Wales, including the ERTMS-only Cambrian, by replacing the Holyhead - Birminghams with LHCS (extra 175s rather more difficult to obtain). However, I have since been told Holyhead - Birminghams interwork with Cambrians, so that won't work. Looking at the timetables I've so far been unable to think of a way around the Holyheads and Cambrians having to interwork without removing Birmingham services from either the Cambrian or the north Wales coast (unless there's an alternative route from Wolverhampton to Birmingham which could be used).

As of October, the timetable will be tightened slightly, and line speeds increased between Mach and Aber, and Salop to Newtown, and a few points in between.

I would be interested to know what the new linespeeds will be, for each section, if anyone happens to have details.

 

[merlodlliw]

Anyway. DFT procure new stock not the TOCs. I think this applies to ATW even though WG has transport devolved.

Wales is different, ATW procured stock for the original Gerald and is currently refurbishing the procured stock for the new DVT/67 enhanced service all of it paid for by WG and to run as open access.

I admit these are not franchise services & no new stock will be on order until ATW ends its 15 year contract in 2018, my opinion.
The 175 (WAG2) now starting at Swansea on its return is of course franchise double funded stock.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Wales is different, ATW procured stock for the original Gerald and is currently refurbishing the procured stock for the new DVT/67 enhanced service all of it paid for by WG and to run as open access.

I admit these are not franchise services & no new stock will be on order until ATW ends its 15 year contract in 2018, my opinion.
The 175 (WAG2) now starting at Swansea on its return is of course franchise double funded stock.

Indeed the present WG for various reasons seems less likely to be the magic third party funding fairy for ATW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This appears in the Draft minutes of the SHREWSBURY TO ABERYSTWYTH RAILWAY LIAISON COMMITTEE from July 6th.

James Arden is the Rail Franchise Performance Manager for ATW at Welsh Government.


4.03 Meeting with Welsh Assembly

The meeting was updated on a meeting held with James Arden from the WAG on the hourly service. It appears that the infrastructure now in place does not support an hourly service and some parts of the infrastructure will need altering. The secretary is to write to gain clarification on each item raised for the next meeting.

 

[tirphil]

I would be interested to know what the new linespeeds will be, for each section, if anyone happens to have details.

Only one I know for certain is increase of linespeeds into/out of loops at Newtown from 25kph to 40kph.

 

[The Planner]

Talk of closing Forden crossing as well which would gain a bit.

 

[merlodlliw]

Indeed the present WG for various reasons seems less likely to be the magic third party funding fairy for ATW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This appears in the Draft minutes of the SHREWSBURY TO ABERYSTWYTH RAILWAY LIAISON COMMITTEE from July 6th.

James Arden is the Rail Franchise Performance Manager for ATW at Welsh Government.


4.03 Meeting with Welsh Assembly

The meeting was updated on a meeting held with James Arden from the WAG on the hourly service. It appears that the infrastructure now in place does not support an hourly service and some parts of the infrastructure will need altering. The secretary is to write to gain clarification on each item raised for the next meeting.

Do they really know where the line is, gain clarification on each item raised,knowing how it works, another year of doing nothing.If the WG Rail Unit are involved.
With all the £millions spent will we ever see an hourly service before 2020,little wonder people have no faith in the railway.

 

[The Informer]

Only way they made the single line occupation lower is by omitting Caersws on every other service.
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Not seen a Network Change for that one, got any details on the linespeed increases ?

That's funny, nor me!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Only one I know for certain is increase of linespeeds into/out of loops at Newtown from 25kph to 40kph.

And that's not between machy and aber is stated in a previous post.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Talk of closing Forden crossing as well which would gain a bit.

That's a new one too. I will try an get clarification on that one.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Do they really know where the line is, gain clarification on each item raised,knowing how it works, another year of doing nothing.If the WG Rail Unit are involved.
With all the £millions spent will we ever see an hourly service before 2020,little wonder people have no faith in the railway.

SARPA had a meeting with then WAG Transport Minster in March 2008 one of our delegation raised concerns about the location of the reinstated loops. Tim James the then Head of WG Rail Unit denied any problems. Tim James is back at NR now I believe.

It could be the positions were calculated with RETB timings as they had no way of knowing what ertms was going to do back then.

 

[The Planner]

It could be the positions were calculated with RETB timings as they had no way of knowing what ertms was going to do back then.

That is the case, pure and simple.

 

[Gareth Marston]

That is the case, pure and simple.

Did anyone stop to think of the possible consequence that ertms might make?
As a group we preferred some of the other options NR put on the table as there was more flexibility in them.

 

[The Planner]

Doubt if anyone really knew what ERTMS would do, it is still a learning curve now and I dread to think of the issues it is going to have when put on a mainline.

 

[tirphil]

Talk of closing Forden crossing as well which would gain a bit.

I have heard that from a Network Rail employee. It will happen, just a matter of when.

 

[47421]

As an alternative to hourly through to Aber is there any merit in pursuing hourly Shrewsbury to Newtown? A single additional unit could in theory run in the alternate hours between Shrewsbury and Newtown which would at least provide two of the busier stations with a better service (including much improved communting opportunities to Shrewsbury) and relieve crowding on the Aber services. If that unit was based at Mach it could work up from Aber in the morning and back at night providing one extra service to/from Aber. Sure I saw something about this possibility years ago?

BTW does the dynmaic loop at Welshpool work now - are trains allowed to pass at speed and do we know if any actually ever have done so?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Doubt if anyone really knew what ERTMS would do, it is still a learning curve now and I dread to think of the issues it is going to have when put on a mainline.

Extract from yesterday's HLOS statement from DfT:

49.The introduction of the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) appears to offer valuable efficiency and potential capacity benefits. The Secretary of State wishes to see further implementation of the system with no loss of network capacity and with development of capacity and performance benefits in the future. She supports the proposed introduction of ERTMS on the south end of the East Coast Main Line.

 

[tirphil]

Trains have passed each other at Welshpool, but not at speed as there is a TSR near Fron crossing.

 

[The Planner]

Extract from yesterday's HLOS statement from DfT:

49.The introduction of the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) appears to offer valuable efficiency and potential capacity benefits. The Secretary of State wishes to see further implementation of the system with no loss of network capacity and with development of capacity and performance benefits in the future. She supports the proposed introduction of ERTMS on the south end of the East Coast Main Line.

My bold. Lots of non committal words there as in "It should do but we can't say it does yet....". Like I said, sticking it on the south end of the ECML is an entirely different prospect with more junctions and more lines.

 

[Gareth Marston]

As an alternative to hourly through to Aber is there any merit in pursuing hourly Shrewsbury to Newtown? A single additional unit could in theory run in the alternate hours between Shrewsbury and Newtown which would at least provide two of the busier stations with a better service (including much improved communting opportunities to Shrewsbury) and relieve crowding on the Aber services. If that unit was based at Mach it could work up from Aber in the morning and back at night providing one extra service to/from Aber. Sure I saw something about this possibility years ago?

BTW does the dynmaic loop at Welshpool work now - are trains allowed to pass at speed and do we know if any actually ever have done so?

I still have the nice letter Central Trains sent us in 1997 when we proposed the Newtown shuttle with Class 153 unit (it wouldn't have been clockface hourly but you could path it between existing services)- it would cost £400k per annum to run but they didn't have any spare units but liked the idea. Then in 1999 they said hourly all the way to Aber and we all know the sorry tale of that.
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My bold. Lots of non committal words there as in "It should do but we can't say it does yet....". Like I said, sticking it on the south end of the ECML is an entirely different prospect with more junctions and more lines.

your welcome to it!!! tongue in check.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Indeed the present WG for various reasons seems less likely to be the magic third party funding fairy for ATW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This appears in the Draft minutes of the SHREWSBURY TO ABERYSTWYTH RAILWAY LIAISON COMMITTEE from July 6th.

James Arden is the Rail Franchise Performance Manager for ATW at Welsh Government.


4.03 Meeting with Welsh Assembly

The meeting was updated on a meeting held with James Arden from the WAG on the hourly service. It appears that the infrastructure now in place does not support an hourly service and some parts of the infrastructure will need altering. The secretary is to write to gain clarification on each item raised for the next meeting.

I'm told that the parts that need "altering" are extending the Welshpool dynamic loop southward towards Forden (where the double track ran to anyway) and reinstalling the loop at Westbury which was taken out when the 1994 line speed improvements were done.

Anyone out there care to confirm/deny?

 

[merlodlliw]

I'm told that the parts that need "altering" are extending the Welshpool dynamic loop southward towards Forden (where the double track ran to anyway) and reinstalling the loop at Westbury which was taken out when the 1994 line speed improvements were done.

Anyone out there care to confirm/deny?

So why was the Welshpool dynamic loop not extended towards forden in the first place,after all it cost almost as much as the Olympics opening ceremony.
It all seems a total cock up, allowing WG & NR more delaying tactics to stall any introduction of extra services for years.

Quote" The meeting was updated on a meeting held with James Arden from the WAG on the hourly service. It appears that the infrastructure now in place does not support an hourly service " that says it all,

Bob

 

[The Planner]

My personal opinion is that the quoted infrastructure requirements are overkill and not needed. Appears completely knee jerk to me.

 

[the-gog]

So why was the Welshpool dynamic loop not extended towards forden in the first place,after all it cost almost as much as the Olympics opening ceremony.
It all seems a total cock up, allowing WG & NR more delaying tactics to stall any introduction of extra services for years.

Quote" The meeting was updated on a meeting held with James Arden from the WAG on the hourly service. It appears that the infrastructure now in place does not support an hourly service " that says it all,

Bob

It was originally planned that the end of the dynamic loop would be halfway down the straight between the Grove Farm and Forden station level crossing. Indeed, the turnout was dumped here for 18 months ready to be installed. Then some bright spark decided the end of the loop should be on Fron bank, thus the turnout was removed from where it had been dumped in the cess.

 

[merlodlliw]

My personal opinion is that the quoted infrastructure requirements are overkill and not needed. Appears completely knee jerk to me.

you may well be correct, seems like some at WG are looking for any excuse,its this meeting to discuss a meeting at another meeting scenario that the statutory sector are so good at and is never ending.

Any news on the Wrexham/Saltney start, & how long is it likely to last before completion, as we are discussing engineering.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

It was originally planned that the end of the dynamic loop would be halfway down the straight between the Grove Farm and Forden station level crossing. Indeed, the turnout was dumped here for 18 months ready to be installed. Then some bright spark decided the end of the loop should be on Fron bank, thus the turnout was removed from where it had been dumped in the cess.

Yeah that's 100% right its was there for months.

 

[the-gog]

Yeah that's 100% right its was there for months.

A little bird told me that as it had been left out in the open and not installed for a certain amount of time, it had to be scrapped/dismantled/couldn't be used, and that it cost £100,000. P1ssed right down the drain.

 

[Gareth Marston]

So why was the Welshpool dynamic loop not extended towards forden in the first place,after all it cost almost as much as the Olympics opening ceremony.
It all seems a total cock up, allowing WG & NR more delaying tactics to stall any introduction of extra services for years.

Quote" The meeting was updated on a meeting held with James Arden from the WAG on the hourly service. It appears that the infrastructure now in place does not support an hourly service " that says it all,

Bob

I've just read the Grip 3 and 4 reports that ertms may change sectional running times was never even considered even though the reports acknowledge it was coming. There also seems some imperative in 08 to get work done quickly judging by comments in text.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A little bird told me that as it had been left out in the open and not installed for a certain amount of time, it had to be scrapped/dismantled/couldn't be used, and that it cost £100,000. P1ssed right down the drain.

I heard that one to. Will points at Dyfi Jnc be declared unsafe as nothing has used the new loop there I wonder?

 

[the-gog]

I've just read the Grip 3 and 4 reports that ertms may change sectional running times was never even considered even though the reports acknowledge it was coming. There also seems some imperative in 08 to get work done quickly judging by comments in text.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I heard that one to. Will points at Dyfi Jnc be declared unsafe as nothing has used the new loop there I wonder?

 

[tirphil]

I've just read the Grip 3 and 4 reports that ertms may change sectional running times was never even considered even though the reports acknowledge it was coming. There also seems some imperative in 08 to get work done quickly judging by comments in text.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I heard that one to. Will points at Dyfi Jnc be declared unsafe as nothing has used the new loop there I wonder?

5J07 0950 Aberystwyth - Machynlleth CS (sx) is now booked to run through the loop at Dyfi and this arrangement started Monday 23 July and it ran as booked last Wednesday (25th)

 

[merlodlliw]

Love this, is it the head of ATW or the head of NR Engineering Wales,played by an actor thinking

"why do we let the office cat make decisions at 2.00p.m. on Fridays"reply on a postcard only. Answer we finish at noon on Fridays and it was only £100K

Reports that a cat having booked itself into The St Davids Cardiff Bay Hotel at £300 a night, are being looked into, further reports state the cat may have had access to ATW timetables for September.

Farce comes to mind