Major new electrification projects to be anounced shortly

[fgwrich]

I wonder, on the off chance too, that Either the Marshlink (Less Likely) or the Uckfield (More likely) lines will see some new 3rd rail out of this announcement? This rather obviously, then allowing the cascading of some or all of the 171 fleet.

 

[tbtc]

Difficult to say - Will we see wires to Hull, and Will the Goblin get electrified? Think, like the Hornby announcements it's going to be a case some some leaked previews and a mjority of wait and see...

I'll stick my virtual fiver on a trivially small omission, like Bridgend - Maesteg (if the Valleys and the line to Swansea are electrified), there's always a frustratingly minor "gap" in these announcements!

 

[TheJRB]

I wonder, on the off chance too, that Either the Marshlink (Less Likely) or the Uckfield (More likely) lines will see some new 3rd rail out of this announcement? This rather obviously, then allowing the cascading of some or all of the 171 fleet.

I think it's unlikely for either sadly as well as the North Downs line. I agree though. Ultimately all they need is a change of coupler and they're 170s again (if it was easy enough for 170392 to become 171730, it should be easy enough in reverse, no?). I doubt they'd electrify one without the other though as that would take away from the advantage of the number of cascaded carriages and also no longer having to maintain diesels at Selhurst. Then again maybe I'm trying to apply too much logic...

 

[WatcherZero]

Rail network to see 'biggest investment' since the Victorians

Cameron and Clegg to announce electrifications of lines as part of plans that include £10bn capital investment from 2014-19

I went back and checked how much Network Rail had asked for, £10.4bn.

 

[LE Greys]

I'll stick my virtual fiver on a trivially small omission, like Bridgend - Maesteg (if the Valleys and the line to Swansea are electrified), there's always a frustratingly minor "gap" in these announcements!

Mine's on the Thames Valley branches, with a hedge on Reading-Basingstoke.

 

[fgwrich]

Mine's on the Thames Valley branches, with a hedge on Reading-Basingstoke.

I wonder if then, an announcement of electrification of the Thames Valley branches could lead to an indication of any future GW Toc - Didnt First Group say they would consider it?

 

[Squaddie]

Last night's Wales Today on BBC said that electrification from London to Swansea would cut 20 minutes off the current journey time.

So, back to what it was in the 1970s then, when the standard journey time was 2 hours 43 minutes...

 

[The Planner]

Take that with a pinch of salt, it will be one train that is stripped to the bone per day. Not every train will do it.

 

[clc]

.

Haven't Transport Scotland got bigger fish to fry such as getting the borders line built, Glasgow-Edinburgh electrification, finishing the M8 upgrade, the new Forth road bridge, the Aberdeen western by-pass, upgrading the A9 in the Highlands and improving capacity on the Highland mainline and the Inverness-Aberdeen line.

And let's not forget the Edinburgh trams and getting them built and extended through to Leith. But I think that's the responsibility of Edinburgh City Council.

And there of course there's the rail links to Edinburgh and Glasgow airports, if they ever see the light of day again.
.

Paisley Canal electrification is costing £12 million, a drop in the ocean which wouldn't make a dent in any of those schemes. Anyway, its not as if Transport Scotland are twiddling their thumbs. Borders Line will be under construction soon. EGIP cut down but still going ahead. The M8 upgrade is in procurement with contract award due next year. Construction of the new Forth road bridge is underway. The Aberdeen western by-pass is in limbo due to a legal challenge. The A9 upgrade is mainly at design stage. Edinburgh trams are getting built, any extension will have to be funded by Council. Highland mainline and the Inverness-Aberdeen line are programmed for future spending periods. EARL and GARL are dead in the water.

 

[Marton]

Diversionary routes are overrated.... the lack of electrification on the Lincoln Joint line or the Tyne valley does not seem to cause much issue to the East Coast.

Maybe not to you, but the inability to offer a Sunday service much of the year or miss flooding/deaths/level crossing failures/broken down trains on the EC is a real nightmare for those of us that use it regularly.

 

[Ivo]

Mine's on the Thames Valley branches, with a hedge on Reading-Basingstoke.

This post would appear to suggest that Basingstoke to Reading is very likely to be wired.

I would hope the branches follow suit.

 

[Batman]

I've got my fingers crossed for the Aldridge extension. If NR are asking for £10.4bn and there is a specific emphasis on reversing Beeching cuts, this could be a once in a generation opportunity.

But then again, I won't be surprised if it doesn't get announced.

 

[The Informer]

I know for a fact that survey teams have been up and down the North Wales coast line recently!!!

 

[HSTEd]

Maybe not to you, but the inability to offer a Sunday service much of the year or miss flooding/deaths/level crossing failures/broken down trains on the EC is a real nightmare for those of us that use it regularly.

....
I use the ECML very regularly, but I have ironically never been significantly delayed by any of those things, and in many cases there are no routes that could act as diversionary routes practically.
Lincoln Joint Line is just too slow and too long, and Tyne Valley is even more so.

Unless you consider the Durham Coast line to be a viable alternate route?

 

[Julia]

My understanding is most of the sprinter class can be made to comply.

The 150s certainly can
The 153s and 155s can't - no great loss there really.

Silly question perhaps, but would a permanently formed 150-153-150 or 156-153-156 set be compliant?

 

[anthony263]

I wonder if we could see the Severn Beach branch wired as there was talk of the Henbury loop being wired to Avonmouth.

I also read in the latest issue of Rail that there could be up to 61 class 315's displaced once crossrail is up and running so there could be a few of these units available after a number are taken for the Cardiff Valley Lines (if the option to do so is taken up)

 

[HSTEd]

If they start wiring up secondary routes like that I will be very upset if they don't simply wire to Carmarthen and all the other secondary GWML destinations and kill the bi-mode IEP that way.

 

[tbtc]

Silly question perhaps, but would a permanently formed 150-153-150 or 156-153-156 set be compliant?

My understanding is that that would be fine from a compliance perspective, as long as the train has DDA compliant door/ toilet (etc) in the 150/156 part then the fact that there's a 153 in the middle is okay.

In the way that its okay for buses to have an upstairs that is "disabled unfriendly" as long as they are compliant downstairs - if that makes sense.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I also read in the latest issue of Rail that there could be up to 61 class 315's displaced once crossrail is up and running so there could be a few of these units available after a number are taken for the Cardiff Valley Lines (if the option to do so is taken up)

A large number of 315s are used on the route that Crossrail will take over (the "Shenfield Metro"), but they are also used on

• Romford - Upminster
• London Liverpool Street - Enfield Town
• London Liverpool Street - Chingford
• London Liverpool Street - Cheshunt

As there are only 61 in total, there will still need to be a few left in/around London for these services, so nothing like that number available for Wales.

 

[Chris125]

This post would appear to suggest that Basingstoke to Reading is very likely to be wired.

I would hope the branches follow suit.

Wires to Basingstoke are looking very likely, especially with the funding of WRATH. The various Thames branches will probably be included in the various franchise bids if they arent in the HLOS - they really shouldnt be hard to justify, especially if they follow the same approach as the Paisely Canal electrification.

Chris

 

[Zoe]

Romford - Upminster

This route always used to be 315 operated but I had read that these days it uses 317s. Has it gone back over to 315 operation?

 

[WatcherZero]

Papers and news seems to be reporting this weekend they may actually increase the size of the current RPI +3% ticket increases to pay for the works programme. Would people using the Midland line be as happy if they had to face RPI+8% fare rises to pay for it similar to HS1

 

[tbtc]

Papers and news seems to be reporting this weekend they may actually increase the size of the current RPI +3% ticket increases to pay for the works programme. Would people using the Midland line be as happy if they had to face RPI+8% fare rises to pay for it similar to HS1

If the business case for MML electrification is supposedly so good that it'd be cheaper to wire it than not to wire it (as is often claimed) then I'd expect fares to come down

Seriously though, that's a good question - I'd rather pay more for longer faster trains - even with a ten percent increase in ticket prices the train would be better value for money than the recent fuel increases make driving.

 

[Skymonster]

Papers and news seems to be reporting this weekend they may actually increase the size of the current RPI +3% ticket increases to pay for the works programme. Would people using the Midland line be as happy if they had to face RPI+8% fare rises to pay for it similar to HS1

Well, any infrstructure investment has to be paid for somehow. And I'm not convinced it should all come out of general taxation. To me its like libraries and public swimming pools (and many other things) - I don't use any of those things, I don't really think that I should have to pay for them out of taxation, and I'd prefer it if they were funded on a pay-per-use basis by their users. Likewise the railway - even as a regular MML user I'd prefer it if the infrastructure improvements were paid for by the users albeit that the costs were written down and paid for over the life of the infrastructure.

Andy

 

[swt_passenger]

Papers and news seems to be reporting this weekend they may actually increase the size of the current RPI +3% ticket increases to pay for the works programme. Would people using the Midland line be as happy if they had to face RPI+8% fare rises to pay for it similar to HS1

Politics. The main way the opposition can knock the plans is to suggest it might put up fares. They can easily quote so called expert Christian Wolmar for instance, cos he always says this. I expect Bob Crow is also almost certain to have a moan about whatever is announced, because that is what he is paid to do.

I noticed in one news article that Maria Eagle was complaining about the fact that it was all going to be about the period between 2014 and 2019, which would mainly be in the next parliament. But surely that was also true when they announced the current work back in 2007. It nearly all turned out to be done in the next parliament under the Conservatives...

And more importantly, it was her party's 2005 Railway Act that led to the whole system of HLOS and SoFA, with its laid down timetable for announcements that the DfT has to meet, along with various NR and ORR milestones as well.

So it could be argued that it is a 'good thing' that the current government are carrying on with the system developed by Labour to try and bring a semblance of medium term planning to the industry...

 

[northwichcat]

My understanding is that that would be fine from a compliance perspective, as long as the train has DDA compliant door/ toilet (etc) in the 150/156 part then the fact that there's a 153 in the middle is okay.

In the way that its okay for buses to have an upstairs that is "disabled unfriendly" as long as they are compliant downstairs - if that makes sense.

My understanding would be that if you had a complaint 150/1 and a non-complaint 150/2 then joining the two up in the normal manner would not be permitted but inserting the non-complaint 150/2 in to middle of the 150/1 would be permitted.

What's slightly different between a train and a double decker bus is the downstairs of a bus is never out-of-use unless the whole bus is out-of-use. With trains a carriage could be out-of-use due to short platforms or a technical problem affecting one carriage e.g. lights not working or doors not opening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Seriously though, that's a good question - I'd rather pay more for longer faster trains - even with a ten percent increase in ticket prices the train would be better value for money than the recent fuel increases make driving.

You mean like what has happened on the WCML? More trains, extra carriages and faster journey times have all come in but flexible fares have seen huge increases. So you finish up with an alternative economy service (in the form of LM Desiro services) used by the people avoiding the high fares.

 

[tbtc]

You mean like what has happened on the WCML? More trains, extra carriages and faster journey times have all come in but flexible fares have seen huge increases. So you finish up with an alternative economy service (in the form of LM Desiro services) used by the people avoiding the high fares.

The difference being that I don't recall the WCML's business case being so good that it was cheaper to spend all those billions on upgrading it than to do nothing.

The MML supposedly has an "infinite" case (i.e. you save money by electrifying).

 

[northwichcat]

The MML supposedly has an "infinite" case (i.e. you save money by electrifying).

But that's like saying you save money by getting a mortgage and buying a house over renting. In the short term you need a lot more money even if over 20 years it will be cheaper.

 

[cle]

Wires to Basingstoke are looking very likely, especially with the funding of WRATH. The various Thames branches will probably be included in the various franchise bids if they arent in the HLOS - they really shouldnt be hard to justify, especially if they follow the same approach as the Paisely Canal electrification.

Chris

In terms of WRATH, do you think trains would interface with the Basingstoke/Reading lines? The slow lines are all on the north of Reading - even more north after the works are finished!

I could see continuation towards Oxford, due to lack of clashes, but I don't think they could access the Basingstoke line?

Shame perhaps because Heathrow to Basingstoke and down towards Winchester, Southampton and beyond might be a useful flow. Still, the change at Reading would be easy. Not sure how popular that Woking coach is?

 

[Chris125]

Dont forget that the fast lines west of Reading station will be using a flyover to remove conflicts with freight services down to Basingstoke, along with anything else using the relief lines and/or the northern platforms at Reading.

Chris

 

[A0]

I think wiring north of Corby would be a) to simplify operations, with reversals & turnbacks at Leicester, and because the present limited service to Oakham & Melton Mowbray doesn't really do enough to get modal shift going. Also, it's a useful diversionary route for freight, and will be wired as part of Birmingham-Felixstowe anyway.

There's barely the traffic demand to justify electrification north of Corby - and as for the "modal" shift - you're making the fatal mistake, which far too many do, of assuming that people will all of a sudden start using the train to travel to other destinations from Corby - they won't. Not least when it will still be far quicker to go one stop south to Kettering and then travel north to Leicester, unless you're proposing some penal fare structure to deter people from doing this?

Somebody else has queried your statement about freight.

Additionally, I'd really like to see the Chiltern Main line wired, including Marylebone-Aylesbury, Aylsebury-Princes Risborough, Marlyebone-Snow Hill, Bicester-Oxford, Banbury-Oxford, Leamington-Stratford, Stratford-Solihull, Leamington-Coventry & Snow Hill-Worcester.

Good luck with Marylebone - Aylesbury electrification - I think London Underground might have something to say about a fair stretch (Amersham - Harrow) of that...... I can't see LUL agreeing to wires all over their infrastructure, so I doubt that one will happen any time soon.