Major new electrification projects to be anounced shortly

[Waverley125]

the MML really is key. Once that's done, the CBR for every other infill scheme goes through the roof.

One a couple of issues:

I'd expect to see Suburban EMUs up the MML extended to Leicester & round the 'Harringworth loop', meaning lower dwell times, better service for Kettering, Corby, Oakham & Melton Mowbray both south to London & into Leicester. Hopefully this would include re-opened stations at Kibworth, Desborough, Wymington, Oakley, & Sharnbrook.

This would, in the intermediate, lead to (I'd imagine) a loss of EMT services for Market Harborough, and through fast London services on the Corby line. However, I'd expect to still see Nottingham & Derby services calling at Luton Airport, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP & Nottingham/Derby.

Sheffield services would probably be Luton, Bedford, Leicester, with a stopping service with alternating additional calls on the above stations. Sheffield services might extend to Leeds if the line were electrified, hopefully serving Rotherham and/or Barnsley.

On TPE, I'd hope to see the Hope Valley wired, both as TPE infil, and as MML diversionary, and as it makes sense if Hazel Grove-Buxton gets wired. This should allow Cleethorpes, Grimsby & Scunthorpe to become destinations on North as well as South TPE, with services running east out of Leeds, then down the ECML to Doncaster before reversing onto the Cleethorpes line.

It should also see the return of London services, hopefully allowing the concentration of southern ECML stops onto Hull, Cleethorpes & Leeds slow services, with 2-hourly Newcastle services, and a change in Newcastle or York for Scottish services.

Other than that, further wiring off the MML I'd expect to see:

Derby-Birmingham New Street
Birmingham New Street-Barnt Green via Moseley (& re-opening)
Barnt Green-Bristol Parkway (including Worcester loop)
Cardiff-Swansea
Gloucester-Newport
Swindon-Cheltenham Spa/Gloucester
Water Orton-Leicester
Leicester-Ely via Peterborough
Ely-Stowmarket
Ely-Norwich
Grantham-Nottingham
Nottingham-Newark-Lincoln
Felixstowe-Ipswich
Chippenham Junction-Cambridge via Newmarket (including Newmarket Curve)
Sheffield-Doncaster
Sheffield-Leeds via Wakefield Westgate & Wakefield Kirkgate
Moorthorpe-Church Fenton
Dore Junction-Hazel Grove
New Mills South Junction-Ashburys
Romiley-Rose Hill Marple
Huddersfield-Goole via Wakefield Kirkgate
Doncaster-Gilberdyke
Methley Junction-Burton Salmon Junction
Castleford-Pontefract Monkhill
Nottingham-Clay Cross Junction
Sheffield-Lincoln
Nottingham-Lincoln

 

[anthony263]

Just seen this:

http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co...ucestershire/story-16514651-detail/story.html

 

[HSTEd]

Oh great, scarce electrification resources frittered away on secondary routes.

 

[RobShipway]

Oh great, scarce electrification resources frittered away on secondary routes.

I did not think that HST's where used in Secondary routes???

 

[LE Greys]

Oh great, scarce electrification resources frittered away on secondary routes.

As opposed to small diesel islands in a mostly electrified network? Cheltenham as the new Uckfield, they never quite get round to it.

 

[A0]

the MML really is key. Once that's done, the CBR for every other infill scheme goes through the roof.

One a couple of issues:

I'd expect to see Suburban EMUs up the MML extended to Leicester & round the 'Harringworth loop', meaning lower dwell times, better service for Kettering, Corby, Oakham & Melton Mowbray both south to London & into Leicester. Hopefully this would include re-opened stations at Kibworth, Desborough, Wymington, Oakley, & Sharnbrook.

This would, in the intermediate, lead to (I'd imagine) a loss of EMT services for Market Harborough, and through fast London services on the Corby line. However, I'd expect to still see Nottingham & Derby services calling at Luton Airport, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP & Nottingham/Derby.

Sheffield services would probably be Luton, Bedford, Leicester, with a stopping service with alternating additional calls on the above stations. Sheffield services might extend to Leeds if the line were electrified, hopefully serving Rotherham and/or Barnsley.

I think you need to look at the current EMT stopping pattern first.

Most Sheffield services run fast to Leicester - it's unlikely that would change.

The risk, in my mind, is that if you get an 'extended' electric suburban service to Leicester, then the EMT services would all run fast from Leicester - with perhaps occasional stops at Luton Airport Parkway as the 'outer London' stopping point (in the same way Stevenage or Milton Keynes work).

Can't believe electrification north of Corby is on the cards - there's barely justification for a service north of Corby at the moment - it's not like it serves anywhere significant and it's a long way round to get to Leicester (it's quicker to go to Kettering and double-back).

 

[Pen Mill]

The MML decision is supposedly linked to the HS2 route, though I don't see what would change south of Derby.
It is always presented as an isolated Bedford-Derby/Nottingham-Sheffield project, which seems to me to ignore the wider network benefits if the wires reached Doncaster/Moorthorpe.

In any case it would be an all-electric route, so no bi-mode complications.
However there would have to be a home for the existing 22x trains for the business case to be viable.

Failing electrification West of Basingstoke , 222s on West of Emgland Main Line 159 replacements would be nice Don't need the speed, just the comfort because these short sprinter seats are doing my ageing knees in !

 

[Waverley125]

I think wiring north of Corby would be a) to simplify operations, with reversals & turnbacks at Leicester, and because the present limited service to Oakham & Melton Mowbray doesn't really do enough to get modal shift going. Also, it's a useful diversionary route for freight, and will be wired as part of Birmingham-Felixstowe anyway.

Additionally, I'd really like to see the Chiltern Main line wired, including Marylebone-Aylesbury, Aylsebury-Princes Risborough, Marlyebone-Snow Hill, Bicester-Oxford, Banbury-Oxford, Leamington-Stratford, Stratford-Solihull, Leamington-Coventry & Snow Hill-Worcester.

 

[swt_passenger]

...Also, it's a useful diversionary route for freight, and will be wired as part of Birmingham-Felixstowe anyway...

Really?

Where is the existing commitment to provide an electrified cross country freight route?

 

[sprinterguy]

Oh great, scarce electrification resources frittered away on secondary routes.

Because of course the last thing we want to see would be the GWML electrified properly, wiring up to where the Intercity services actually run to (Cheltenham), and the essential diversionary route between Gloucester and Severn Tunnel Junction :roll:

 

[HSTEd]

Because of course the last thing we want to see would be the GWML electrified properly, wiring up to where the Intercity services actually run to (Cheltenham), and the essential diversionary route between Gloucester and Severn Tunnel Junction :roll:

Diversionary routes are overrated.... the lack of electrification on the Lincoln Joint line or the Tyne valley does not seem to cause much issue to the East Coast.
And GWML will have lots and lots of diesel capable intercity trains anyway.

We should spend these resources on a route used by lots of trains every single day rather than depending on the bypass routes for the business case.

I imagine the XC route is better than the Gloucester route in BCR terms.

 

[cle]

So typically, people are already robbing Peter to pay Paul before we even know the scope.

Once the Kemble work is done, Cheltenham-London services are expected to go hourly. I'm not sure if this will cover the demand on the line, or if perhaps the shuttles from Swindon will make it half-hourly. Hilly, curvy routes such as this one, with lots of speed variances do benefit a lot from electrification. HSTs are doing local services, which they do terribly with their long dwells and rubbish acceleration.

That said, XC is basically a semi-fast service these days and electrification would help hugely too. Not that many people travel for more than 1.5 hours.

These two schemes do overlap and Bristol Parkway to Barnt Green would enable Bristol - Manchester trains to go electric, for a start.

 

[tbtc]

Once the Kemble work is done, Cheltenham-London services are expected to go hourly

However this will also be when the Bristol - London service is increased to four trains an hour. So that means Swindon - Reading/ London going up from 4.5/ hour to 7/ hour. Is there going to be space for everything?

 

[fgwrich]

These two schemes do overlap and Bristol Parkway to Barnt Green would enable Bristol - Manchester trains to go electric, for a start.

True, but most of the XC Services going to Manchester are the ex South Coast services - Most of the South West services seem to go through to Leeds / Edinburgh / Dundee etc.

Also, with all these further electrification schemes were talking about, What about the GOBLIN? Surley that could also be hidden in next weeks announcement?

 

[cle]

However this will also be when the Bristol - London service is increased to four trains an hour. So that means Swindon - Reading/ London going up from 4.5/ hour to 7/ hour. Is there going to be space for everything?

I'm not sure everything will stop at both though. I doubt the new Bristols will - the Parkway route is quicker anyway so will become the flagship I imagine, at about 1h15 to BRI. Maybe they'll stop at Reading though.

Perhaps an idea might be to make the regular up platform at Swindon (3) a bi-di passing/fast platform, with all up stopping trains using platform 1. And all down on platform 4.

Wonder if that'd work in terms of signalling. I know it's bi-di already due to being the old down - but would the crossovers exist for trains from both directions to pass onto that line at speed?

 

[tbtc]

True, but most of the XC Services going to Manchester are the ex South Coast services - Most of the South West services seem to go through to Leeds / Edinburgh / Dundee etc

There are four main hourly XC services (ignoring the 170 services):

• Edinburgh - Leeds - Plymouth (bi-hourly starts from Glasgow, a couple from Aberdeen/Dundee, a few run into Cornwall at the southern end)
• Newcastle - Doncaster - Reading (bi-hourly to Southampton)
• Manchester - Coventry - Bournemouth
• Manchester - Bristol (roughly bi-hourly beyond Bristol, serving Paignton etc)

The two Manchester services would be the easiest to convert to electric operation, since the line from Manchester to Coventry/ Barnt Green is already wired. However even if the line from Barnt Green to Bristol Parkway were wired, you'd need to decide whether to chop the Paignton (etc) extensions?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not sure everything will stop at both though. I doubt the new Bristols will - the Parkway route is quicker anyway so will become the flagship I imagine, at about 1h15 to BRI. Maybe they'll stop at Reading though.

Perhaps an idea might be to make the regular up platform at Swindon (3) a bi-di passing/fast platform, with all up stopping trains using platform 1. And all down on platform 4.

Wonder if that'd work in terms of signalling. I know it's bi-di already due to being the old down - but would the crossovers exist for trains from both directions to pass onto that line at speed?

I don't know about stopping patterns, but the additional Bristol services won't leave a lot of track space for Cheltenham trains through Swindon (regardless of what stops there).

I'd like to see the Cheltenham service to be more regular, I'm just worried that not everywhere will get what they wanted when the line is electrified (e.g. there's also demand for a Bristol - Oxford service post electrification, but is there space for it? What about Go-op?)

 

[cle]

True, but most of the XC Services going to Manchester are the ex South Coast services - Most of the South West services seem to go through to Leeds / Edinburgh / Dundee etc.

Also, with all these further electrification schemes were talking about, What about the GOBLIN? Surley that could also be hidden in next weeks announcement?

Sorry to double post but this one is a different topic.

From what I understand, Manchester has the shortest run on SW:.

Bristol - Manchester
Penzance/Plymouth - Scotland

but on via Reading, it doesn't :

Reading - Newcastle
Bournemouth - Manchester

 

[tbtc]

Sorry to double post but this one is a different topic.

From what I understand, Manchester has the shortest run on SW:.

Bristol - Manchester
Penzance/Plymouth - Scotland

but on via Reading, it doesn't :

Reading - Newcastle
Bournemouth - Manchester

True.

However Manchester - Bournemouth may be electrified sooner than Manchester - Bristol (despite being longer) because there's more chance of the gaps (Coventry to Oxford and Reading to Basingstoke) being filled in, plus the fact that no services go beyond Manchester/ Bournemouth helps the case (unlike the extended Manchester - Bristol services to Devon/ Cornwall)

 

[sprinterguy]

However this will also be when the Bristol - London service is increased to four trains an hour. So that means Swindon - Reading/ London going up from 4.5/ hour to 7/ hour. Is there going to be space for everything?

Network Rail and the DfT (Although I am having difficulty sourcing where the proposed frequency pattern of IEP trains each hour has been published) seem confident that there will be: There are currently 15 main line paths (Relief lines therefore excluded) available between Reading and Paddington in the busiest hour. These will accomodate 9 x IEP trains (Including those utilised on Oxford & Cotswolds services), 5 x Outer-suburban EMUs (Oxford/Newbury) and 1 x West of England HST per hour, at the busiest times. This comfortably allows for 7 IEPs per hour from the Swindon direction.

I can't speak for any limitations on the Reading - Swindon stretch mind.

 

[cle]

True.

However Manchester - Bournemouth may be electrified sooner than Manchester - Bristol (despite being longer) because there's more chance of the gaps (Coventry to Oxford and Reading to Basingstoke) being filled in, plus the fact that no services go beyond Manchester/ Bournemouth helps the case (unlike the extended Manchester - Bristol services to Devon/ Cornwall)

Might we see XC return to Manchester looping once all wired - i.e. via Bolton, or Eccles and Wigan which seems to be the future preferred route now.

I doubt it, but would be possible.

 

[fgwrich]

Ah, thanks for clearing the XC business up, so Bristol to Manchester does make some degree of sense!

As for Reading to Swindon - Looking at most of the route on Google Maps, is there any reason, apart from cost as to why you couldn't say 3 or 4 track from either Wooton Basset or Swindon up to the edge of Steventon - the pinch point where the 4 tracks from didcot narrow back to two? Theres certainly anouth space along the route, and youve already got a fairly lengthy 4 track loop too.

 

[sprinterguy]

Might we see XC return to Manchester looping once all wired - i.e. via Bolton, or Eccles and Wigan which seems to be the future preferred route now.

I doubt it, but would be possible.

The sole principal reason for the Crosscountry services of old running round a loop via Manchester was because the Manchester XC services mainly comprised loco hauled formations, so running them via the through platforms avoided the need to perform run-rounds in the terminal platforms, which would waste platform capacity and was time consuming.

There’s going to be a lot more pressures on the through platforms at Piccadilly once the North West electrification is complete and the Ordsall chord is complete, as all the TPE services from Manchester Airport will now run through rather than reversing in the terminal platforms, and there might be an increased frequency of Northern services, as well. Conversely, because the TPE Manchester Airport services will have been moved to the through platforms there will be plenty of available capacity in the terminal platforms for the Crosscountry services, and laying over for a reasonable amount of time (rather than the limited stopover trains would be afforded if calling at the through platforms) increases service reliability. So it would be in nobody’s interests to make them loop round.

 

[cle]

The sole principal reason for the Crosscountry services of old running round a loop via Manchester was because the Manchester XC services mainly comprised loco hauled formations, so running them via the through platforms avoided the need to perform run-rounds in the terminal platforms, which would waste platform capacity and was time consuming.

There’s going to be a lot more pressures on the through platforms at Piccadilly once the North West electrification is complete and the Ordsall chord is complete, as all the TPE services from Manchester Airport will now run through rather than reversing in the terminal platforms, and there might be an increased frequency of Northern services, as well. Conversely, because the TPE Manchester Airport services will have been moved to the through platforms there will be plenty of available capacity in the terminal platforms for the Crosscountry services, and laying over for a reasonable amount of time (rather than the limited stopover trains would be afforded if calling at the through platforms) increases service reliability. So it would be in nobody’s interests to make them loop round.

Thanks for that, makes sense. So platforms 3 and 4 will be spare a lot then!

Is there still talk of a fourth tph from Euston to Manchester (stopping Crewe/Stockport only)? Which I reckon they should try to squeeze a Watford stop for, by the way!

 

[swt_passenger]

Network Rail and the DfT (Although I am having difficulty sourcing where the proposed frequency pattern of IEP trains each hour has been published) seem confident that there will be...

I think the consultation draft for the GW franchise has the most up to date (publicly available) IEP service proposal:

4 trains per hour (tph) London–Bristol Temple Meads; 2 tph running via Bath and 2 tph running via Bristol Parkway. Some of the Parkway trains would extend to Weston-super-Mare and, in the peaks, to Taunton;

2 tph London–Cardiff, with 1 tph serving Swansea, and 1 train per day extending to Carmarthen;

1 tph London–Worcester, with some extensions to Great Malvern and Hereford;

1 tph London–Cheltenham;

1 tph (most hours) semi-fast to Westbury, with some extensions to Exeter and one mid-day round trip to Paignton.

So that definitely proposes 7 tph west of Didcot.

Also an interesting point in relation to an earlier comment, from the CP5 enhancements:

Bristol Parkway - construction of an additional Down line platform and passenger
circulating area to enable two additional fast trains per hour to operate
between Paddington and Bristol TM calling at Bristol Parkway only

 

[Solaris]

Looks interesting....
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-ne...rification-projects-in-wales-91466-31387880/

 

[Stats]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/13/rail-network-investment-cameron-clegg looks even more interesting

Rail network to see 'biggest investment' since the Victorians

Cameron and Clegg to announce electrifications of lines as part of plans that include £10bn capital investment from 2014-19

 

[tbtc]

Also an interesting point in relation to an earlier comment, from the CP5 enhancements:

That is interesting - I'd have thought that if anything were to skip Reading and Swindon they'd speed up some of the Welsh services or "via Bath" services if anything.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Since this is the HLOS thread, any predictions for what *won't* get announced?

 

[HSTEd]

Any projects in Scotland will be out probably...

 

[fgwrich]

Since this is the HLOS thread, any predictions for what *won't* get announced?

Difficult to say - Will we see wires to Hull, and Will the Goblin get electrified? Think, like the Hornby announcements it's going to be a case some some leaked previews and a majority of wait and see...

 

[Solaris]

Any projects in Scotland will be out probably...

Scotland has it own HLOS and is stuffed with schemes.... The England/Wales HLOS finally has some major investment in Welsh rail!