Passengers thinking they can use Oyster PAYG beyond the PAYG area

[CNash]

This has been discussed before and the problem found was that you'd need to make new zones to add these stations to Oyster, if you propose not to add new zones then the TOC's will basically lose revenue from it so there is little incentive for them to add an alternative to paper tickets outside the Oyster areas!

What about zones 7, 8 and 9 up on the Metropolitan Line? I don't know the circumstances as to why this area is "special" and gets extended zones, but surely the mechanism is already there?

 

[Brucey]

What about zones 7, 8 and 9 up on the Metropolitan Line? I don't know the circumstances as to why this area is "special" and gets extended zones, but surely the mechanism is already there?

Oyster can only support 15 zones. I believe 11 are currently in use.

If stations to the east were put into Z7, 8 or 9, then they would also need to have the same fares as existing stations in these zones.

 

[bb21]

What about zones 7, 8 and 9 up on the Metropolitan Line? I don't know the circumstances as to why this area is "special" and gets extended zones, but surely the mechanism is already there?

Zones 7-9 are not zones in the traditional sense as Zones 1-6. They're just a few stations grouped together and charged the same fares for convenience.

If Dartford, for example, is included in the Oyster scheme, unless SET agrees that it is charged the same as somewhere like Rickmansworth or even Amersham (both unlikely), then it will require its own zone. There is a constraint in terms of capacity on the Oyster card, and will take lots of negotiation as evidenced by the slow introduction of PAYG in South London.

My opinion is that the government should get their acts together and get ITSO on the way and that Oyster should not be expanding, but be replaced by ITSO as soon as possible.

 

[IslandDweller]

It's very easy to snigger.

On the other hand - there are millions and millions of people in London who use Oyster every day for their travel and it just works (almost all the time). The real question they might ask is why doesn't it work elsewhere. You and I know this is because national ticketing is immensely complicated - but the general public don't know that (and why should they). So far the rail industry and DfT have been lamentable in explaining this to the general public.

The danger is that the rail industry will create another PR disaster - because as far as millions of London travellers are concerned (and remember the London market is a huge percentage of public transport users in the UK) the smart ticket problem was solved two years ago and why doesn't it work elsewhere?

 

[jon0844]

I did wonder about asking why Oyster didn't work in Australia (Queensland) where they had the same Cubic gatelines and smartcard readers as London.

I did, naturally, swipe my Oyster - and got an error code! I guess it was too far outside of the zones (like Stratford International).

 

[SS4]

It's very easy to snigger.

On the other hand - there are millions and millions of people in London who use Oyster every day for their travel and it just works (almost all the time). The real question they might ask is why doesn't it work elsewhere. You and I know this is because national ticketing is immensely complicated - but the general public don't know that (and why should they). So far the rail industry and DfT have been lamentable in explaining this to the general public.

Actually they do know. In today's Metro there is an article on train ticketing and how it's almost Byzantine.
How much of this is clamouring for simpler fares and an unwillingness to research cheap tickets (a sort of if I can't have it, nobody can) is up to you, the reader, to decide.

The danger is that the rail industry will create another PR disaster - because as far as millions of London travellers are concerned (and remember the London market is a huge percentage of public transport users in the UK) the smart ticket problem was solved two years ago and why doesn't it work elsewhere?

The smart ticketing problem is hardly solved, indeed London is a special case in that most of it's major stations are barriered. Ditto for the underground system. Then consider the pink readers that are needed, the maximum journey time, lack of break of journey, continuation journeys and OSIs.
Smart cards are a long way off and personally I'd rather they were kept in London and other major cities which is only where it's required.

 

[ert47]

What about zones 7, 8 and 9 up on the Metropolitan Line? I don't know the circumstances as to why this area is "special" and gets extended zones, but surely the mechanism is already there?

Those stations are outside of the Greater London area but also part of the London Underground network. For all intense and purposes, the LU network is a closed network, therefore it is easier to implement zone in these areas. The issue with trying to apply it to NR is that its how far you go out of London and also whether it makes any financial sense for the TOCs to switch the station to Oyster and lose a large amount of money (as highlighted in a post earlier about Dartford).

Stations up to Caterham and Tattenham Corner were only recently added (using the word recent loosely) and were relatively easy to add into the Oyster zones because they were branch lines that don't have any through services. As to why they were added to zone 6 and not zone 7 or whatever is a different matter (not that im complaining)

 

[The Barlow Boy]

The last Oyster station on that route is Coulsdon South so surely the passenger is issued with a single from there. They have after all already paid to Coulsdon South. In fact by not swiping at Coulsdon effectively they've paid more.

 

[34D]

Ahh but those are most likely set up to be ITSO pads rather than Oyster, so they will not connect with Oyster cards anyway

With respect, I am well aware of the difference.

These pads are identical to those fitted at places such as Kings Cross, Paddington, and many NR stations across zones 1-6.

However, with the compatibility work that is to be done over the next few years, it may be the case that these pads in the future will be able to accept ITSO pads.

Bedford doesnt have them </pedant>

But yes, I do wish that the whole ITSO process was sped up somewhat!

Thank you for your correction. My recollection must have been muddied.

Stations up to Caterham and Tattenham Corner were only recently added (using the word recent loosely) and were relatively easy to add into the Oyster zones because they were branch lines that don't have any through services. As to why they were added to zone 6 and not zone 7 or whatever is a different matter (not that im complaining)

I believe that stations to Strawberry Hill are to be added to Oyster, but nowhere else.

The last Oyster station on that route is Coulsdon South so surely the passenger is issued with a single from there. They have after all already paid to Coulsdon South. In fact by not swiping at Coulsdon effectively they've paid more.

Indeed, but the rules require the passenger to have valid tickets for their complete journey.

 

[OwlMan]

With respect, I am well aware of the difference.

These pads are identical to those fitted at places such as Kings Cross, Paddington, and many NR stations across zones 1-6.

However, with the compatibility work that is to be done over the next few years, it may be the case that these pads in the future will be able to accept ITSO pads.

It is not the type of pad that determines which card(s) can be used (pads can be made by a number of different manufacturers and they all have their own designs) but by the software inside the pad - you can not determine what software is inside by looking at the outside.

Peter

 

[34D]

It is not the type of pad that determines which card(s) can be used (pads can be made by a number of different manufacturers and they all have their own designs) but by the software inside the pad - you can not determine what software is inside by looking at the outside.

Peter

Indeed, I agree. However these gates were fitted to various fcc stations (in and out of the zones) maybe 6 years ago.

 

[455driver]

I did wonder about asking why Oyster didn't work in Australia (Queensland) where they had the same Cubic gatelines and smartcard readers as London.

I did, naturally, swipe my Oyster - and got an error code! I guess it was too far outside of the zones (like Stratford International).

But if it did work what would it have charged you?

 

[jon0844]

I don't want to even guess the maximum cash fare! Or the fare deducted when I next touched on a reader in London!

 

[Daz28]

If Dartford, for example, is included in the Oyster scheme, unless SET agrees that it is charged the same as somewhere like Rickmansworth or even Amersham (both unlikely), then it will require its own zone. There is a constraint in terms of capacity on the Oyster card, and will take lots of negotiation as evidenced by the slow introduction of PAYG in South London.
.

London to Amersham SDR is £15, whereas Dartford SDR is £14.30. So I would think SET would be happy to treat Dartford as the same zone as Amersham.

The real negotiation is about how to share out the revenue from purely zonal tickets. SET will get all the revenue for Dartford to London tickets at present.

 

[CNash]

TFL gives a single fare from Charing Cross to Amersham at £6.40 on Oyster PAYG, which is cheaper than an SET single to Dartford (£7.70). So yeah... SET would be losing money, especially when you factor in that they wouldn't be seeing all of that income.

It's a shame that the railway business model we've got makes it less attractive for TOCs and NR to make improvements that would benefit their customers, because in many cases those improvements would lead to lowered revenue.

 

[Stigy]

Given that the TOC won't receive any of the money of the maximum fare the passenger receives after travelling too far on their PAYG, I'd always deal with it for the full journey they'd made, and not just from the last Zone 6 station....Stands to reason as far as I'm concerned.

 

[34D]

TFL gives a single fare from Charing Cross to Amersham at £6.40 on Oyster PAYG, which is cheaper than an SET single to Dartford (£7.70). So yeah...

Could the Watford Junction zone be more suitable (ie more expensive)?

 

[londonbridge]

Rounding up some of the points made throughout the thread:

Validity at Epsom-it is understandable that some people might assume PAYG is available at Epsom especially when it's valid to Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Ewell East and West.

Buses outside the Oyster area-another easy one to mis-interpret, a layman may very well argue why can they use PAYG on a 405 bus to Redhill but can't use it on a train from Redhill back into Croydon.

Using Oyster (or its equivalent) on other towns/cities networks-specifically as mentioned the Tyne And Wear Metro,I would have thought a PAYG-type system would be fairly straightforward to implement on the metro given the fact that there are fewer stations, only three zones and less routing issues to deal with-in most cases if you look at the start and finish stations it's fairly obvious what route you must have taken.

 

[EM2]

Using Oyster (or its equivalent) on other towns/cities networks-specifically as mentioned the Tyne And Wear Metro,I would have thought a PAYG-type system would be fairly straightforward to implement on the metro given the fact that there are fewer stations, only three zones and less routing issues to deal with-in most cases if you look at the start and finish stations it's fairly obvious what route you must have taken.

You mean like the POPCard?
http://www.nexus.org.uk/pop

 

[The Colonel]

SWT have general announcements today telling punters that Oyster is not valid to Ascot, only to Feltham, and to make sure they have the correct ticket.

I've been asked if Oyster is valid to Dorking and Horsham today already.

 

[daniels]

Given that the TOC won't receive any of the money of the maximum fare the passenger receives after travelling too far on their PAYG, I'd always deal with it for the full journey they'd made, and not just from the last Zone 6 station....Stands to reason as far as I'm concerned.

Revenue from all PAYG sales goes to TfL. The revenue is then divided between the TOCs based on journeys made (some complex calculations no doubt). A maximum fare charge at a TOC station results in the vast majority of the charge being paid to the TOC as far as I know. So a passenger touching in at Lewisham and travelling to Dartford will already have paid most of the maximum entry fare to Southeastern before the inevitable penatly fare is issued.
Hopefully, the return of the red Oyster boundary line on the June maps will help.

 

[exile]

Perhaps passengers are suffering from the delusion that we have a "joined up" transport system in this country.

 

[SWTDesiro]

YOU CAN, there is Band A (Zone 7), Band B (Zone 8) and Band C (Zone 9). All Met stations beyond Northwood Hills I think are beyond Zone 6. Also TfL buses that leave the London boundary still accept oyster cards, I.e the 465 from Kingston to Dorking is a TfL route but oyster cards are accepted throughout.

 

[bicbasher]

With Boris going to the DFT to try and gain Southeastern metro services from the next franchise, Dartford should finally get Oyster as it'll become part of the London Overground network as a terminus.

 

[Wolfie]

YOU CAN, there is Band A (Zone 7), Band B (Zone 8) and Band C (Zone 9). All Met stations beyond Northwood Hills I think are beyond Zone 6. Also TfL buses that leave the London boundary still accept oyster cards, I.e the 465 from Kingston to Dorking is a TfL route but oyster cards are accepted throughout.

....not to mention London Overground out as far as Watford (BUT not Junction as I understand it)...

 

[yorkie]

YOU CAN, there is Band A (Zone 7), Band B (Zone 8) and Band C (Zone 9). All Met stations beyond Northwood Hills I think are beyond Zone 6. Also TfL buses that leave the London boundary still accept oyster cards, I.e the 465 from Kingston to Dorking is a TfL route but oyster cards are accepted throughout.

I'm not sure you've read the original post, however I have edited the title of the thread to clarify.

The issue is people trying to use PAYG beyond the area. For most rail routes, the area ends at Zone 6. For some routes, there is additional acceptance beyond Zone 6, but that does not apply in the case of Eastbourne (and every other route south of the Thames).

 

[Deerfold]

....not to mention London Overground out as far as Watford (BUT not Junction as I understand it)...

Oyster is accepted at Watford Junction, but it's in a special Zone of its own so is more expensive than Watford (LUL) or Watford High Street.

 

[Monty]

'Nobody told me I could only use it in London', I've heard that so many times at Staines, Weybridge, Woking, Guildford etc.

Quoted for the truth, i've heard this so many times also. All it requires is a couple minutes of the passengers time to check prior to travelling. :roll:

 

[jopsuk]

On the West Anglia line the PIS screens still announce the Oyster PAYG limit on northbound trains - though if the announcements were smarter, they'd give the limit as Tottenham Hale on trains (Cambridge apart from Sundays, Stansted) that are non-stop Tottenham Hale to Chesunt- they display it as Turkey Street/Enfield Lock. Not sure if they still make it as audio annoucements- though the text still shows as you pull into Cambridge. Not checked to see if the 379s have this.

 

[island]

c2c has similar posters on its trains.