On the All-Wales Express

[PHILIPE]

Yes they have to provide a franchise to Abergavenny, as Gerald took its path,I reckon once in Salop it will be one of the hourly stoppers,Salop to Crewe,then replace an half hourly to Chester.Wait for the big boasts from ATW an extra service, in fact Abergavenny to Salop will only be new,but what will ATW chop to make up for this,after the BHO cuts on the Salop to Chester line are an example of "they may not notice" but we did. Ill watch the ORR website ATW have to get permission to run Abergavenny to Salop

Bob
My moneys on a 150

Is it necessary to get ORR authority as the train will travel over a recognised ATW Route and over which ATW have a Track Access agreement. When the Maesteg to Gloucesters were extended to Cheltenham about 3 years ago, it was necessary to obtain authority becasue ATW did not previously run beyond Gloucester thus having no Track Access agreement.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Set 1: Express
Set 2: Spare in case of mechanical failure
Set 3: No-one knows yet, although the Fishguard Flyer has been mooted.

My hope was one spare set in case of failures, one on the annouced express and the third either on an inverse north-south express turn (north in the morning, south in the evening) or running Manchester-Swansea/Llandudno franchise trains to provide slack of 1 unit in the 175 fleet.

However it appears, from recent posts, that only 6 mark3s have been obtained. That suggests two sets of four coaches (just like the current WAG fleet), one spare and one working, but two spare locos and two spare DVTs for only one spare coach rake. Rather odd, since I believe every other operator of DVTs (Chiltern, Virgin, GreaterAnglia and East Coast) have fixed formation coach rakes with a DVT each (though Chiltern's generator fittment program has messed that up a bit).

 

[merlodlliw]

Set 1: Express
Set 2: Spare in case of mechanical failure
Set 3: No-one knows yet, although the Fishguard Flyer has been mooted.

No money to run the Fishguard Flyer,ATW wont pay,WG is cash strapped.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it necessary to get ORR authority as the train will travel over a recognised ATW Route and over which ATW have a Track Access agreement. When the Maesteg to Gloucesters were extended to Cheltenham about 3 years ago, it was necessary to obtain authority becasue ATW did not previously run beyond Gloucester thus having no Track Access agreement.

Permission has to be sought to run a new service on NRs rails.OK perhaps not ORR but certainly NR have to give permission

 

[PHILIPE]

No money to run the Fishguard Flyer,ATW wont pay,WG is cash strapped.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Permission has to be sought to run a new service on NRs rails.OK perhaps not ORR but certainly NR have to give permission

Network Rail, yes. This applies to any train as the Timetable or any alterations (even STP) have to be submitted for validation and tweaked by NR if necessary for pathing.

 

[jones_bangor]

WAG may be cash strapped, but the money is there to run a "commuter" service from Cardiff (Abergavenny) to Chester!! Questions, questions....

 

[merlodlliw]

WAG may be cash strapped, but the money is there to run a "commuter" service from Cardiff (Abergavenny) to Chester!! Questions, questions....

ATW have to run the service ex Cardiff 1615 its in the franchise, suppose ATW pocketed some money with Gerald stopping,releasing a 150?,but prior to Gerald the DMU returned Abergavenny to Cardiff as a franchise commuter, ATW have got away with that one.

Someone is paying between Abergavenny & Salop,I still maintain it will then become a local Salop to Crewe in the hourly slot,then do a Crewe Chester in one of the half hourly slots. Looks like the DVT/67 will be parked up for eight hours at Canton, another of Mr Bagshaws smarter use of limited stock which he stated in his letter to me on BH cuts. I agree questions.

Bob

 

[tirphil]

There is possibly a difficulty here due to the Cambrian formed of single line sections. Any retiming can react on paths all the way to Birmingham International. Unfortunately, perhaps, you could "fix" one route connection but possibly have to destroy another one to do it.

Given the station dwell times at Dyfi Junction (1), Machynlleth (8 although 6 booked for coupling units and ERTMS cab prep) and Newtown (3) and the fact that despite this padding/delibrate delay up Cambrian services are still frequently held at Sutton Bridges up home to allow the north coast service into Shrewsbury first I think that some effort could be made to make a 5 minute connection even if this meant departing Aber xx28 vice xx30.

 

[Gareth Marston]

ATW have to run the service ex Cardiff 1615 its in the franchise, suppose ATW pocketed some money with Gerald stopping,releasing a 150?,but prior to Gerald the DMU returned Abergavenny to Cardiff as a franchise commuter, ATW have got away with that one.

Someone is paying between Abergavenny & Salop,I still maintain it will then become a local Salop to Crewe in the hourly slot,then do a Crewe Chester in one of the half hourly slots. Looks like the DVT/67 will be parked up for eight hours at Canton, another of Mr Bagshaws smarter use of limited stock which he stated in his letter to me on BH cuts. I agree questions.

Bob

The 1615 will be a 150 bringing up a fresh unit from Canton for Bidston or Conwy line in summer.
They have to bring a 150 up the Marshes anyway so why not let it earn £?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Given the station dwell times at Dyfi Junction (1), Machynlleth (8 although 6 booked for coupling units and ERTMS cab prep) and Newtown (3) and the fact that despite this padding/delibrate delay up Cambrian services are still frequently held at Sutton Bridges up home to allow the north coast service into Shrewsbury first I think that some effort could be made to make a 5 minute connection even if this meant departing Aber xx28 vice xx30.

ATW have said that they will look at connections at Shrewsbury once new sectional times on Cambrian with ERTMS have been sorted. Despite ERTMS being up and running for over a year now the Cambrian is still on RETB timings.
Dec 12 is hopefully D day for improvements.

 

[merlodlliw]

The 1615 will be a 150 bringing up a fresh unit from Canton for Bidston or Conwy line in summer.
They have to bring a 150 up the Marshes anyway so why not let it earn £?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


ATW have said that they will look at connections at Shrewsbury once new sectional times on Cambrian with ERTMS have been sorted. Despite ERTMS being up and running for over a year now the Cambrian is still on RETB timings.
Dec 12 is hopefully D day for improvements.

Gareth thanks for your up front knowledge on the 1615 I guessed it would be a 150,indeed let it earn £ than just being towed,better Dec 12th becomes C Day.

On another point, are all the 150s refuelled at Canton?

 

[PHILIPE]

Gareth thanks for your up front knowledge on the 1615 I guessed it would be a 150,indeed let it earn £ than just being towed,better Dec 12th becomes C Day.

On another point, are all the 150s refuelled at Canton?

Also Crewe

 

[Michael.Y]

Another murmur today that a LHS will be working Fishguard-Cheltenham. Nothing concrete. Will keep my ears open.

 

[anthony263]

Another murmur today that a LHS will be working Fishguard-Cheltenham. Nothing concrete. Will keep my ears open.

That would be nice and would please a few railway enthusiasts.
Pity if it is true it wont start before September would give me something to do during the olympics

 

[Rhydgaled]

Another murmur today that a LHS will be working Fishguard-Cheltenham. Nothing concrete. Will keep my ears open.

LHCS with what? 3x 67s and 3x DVTs does suggest two rakes in service (one on the new Gerald via Wrexham) but 6x additional mark3s and the current 2 sounds like only one rake in service with 4 coaches, 2 67s and 2 DVTs spare. Unless more mark3s or ATW's mark2 fleet are going to be used too, I don't see more than just Gerald being LHCS* (and if there was a 2nd LHCS rake in service, the Fishgaurd boat train isn't really busy enough to justify a long train most of the time).

Someone has posted on here saying that the Fishguard boat train will be a class 158 once 175002 is returned. Provided that this makes the boat train relibally a 158 7 days a week I'd be happy with that.

*Unless, sadly, the new Gerald is still working days only, in which case the rake could be used elsewhere on weekends and bank holidays.

 

[PHILIPE]

LHCS with what? 3x 67s and 3x DVTs does suggest two rakes in service (one on the new Gerald via Wrexham) but 6x additional mark3s and the current 2 sounds like only one rake in service with 4 coaches, 2 67s and 2 DVTs spare. Unless more mark3s or ATW's mark2 fleet are going to be used too, I don't see more than just Gerald being LHCS* (and if there was a 2nd LHCS rake in service, the Fishgaurd boat train isn't really busy enough to justify a long train most of the time).

Someone has posted on here saying that the Fishguard boat train will be a class 158 once 175002 is returned. Provided that this makes the boat train relibally a 158 7 days a week I'd be happy with that.

*Unless, sadly, the new Gerald is still working days only, in which case the rake could be used elsewhere on weekends and bank holidays.

Fishguard will be 158 only 5 days a week. 150 on Saturdays and Sundays, but if you require to travel on it on a Saturday during the Summer it is strengtheneded. If you ride in the additional unit you will get something more resembling a fairground ride.
The LHCS has to spend time time at Canton for maintenance or coach swapping purposes so available time would be limited.

 

[PHILIPE]

18 18 WAG now shewn in Journey Planner starting from Swansea for duraton of Summer Timetable. It means there is a spare unit at Cardiff to be used for whatever is required.

 

[87015]

Network Rail, yes. This applies to any train as the Timetable or any alterations (even STP) have to be submitted for validation and tweaked by NR if necessary for pathing.

Hahaha '''STP'' and ''validation'' in the same sentence. Very good, what's the next joke please?!!

 

[PHILIPE]

Hahaha '''STP'' and ''validation'' in the same sentence. Very good, what's the next joke please?!! [/QUOTE
Perhaps I should have said everything was intended to be validated.

 

[Big Chris]

On a pondering front, could the train be run with DDA compliant Mk3's and non compliant Mk2's in the medium term. Three sets could be made with two Mk3s and two Mk2s each. Two in service and one spare.

 

[merlodlliw]

Spoke to a person last week connected with Rail in Wales(WG), only one loco hauled set from Sept, Holyhead to Cardiff & return, no more money to be used for any other OA service this financial year,

Bob

 

[Rhydgaled]

Spoke to a person last week connected with Rail in Wales(WG), only one loco hauled set from Sept, Holyhead to Cardiff & return, no more money to be used for any other OA service this financial year,

Bob

So Fishguard extra services are not OA? I thought it would be a bit strange if they were, since the diagrams are interleaved with existing services without the long layovers in Cardiff experienced with the WAG expresses.

 

[merlodlliw]

So Fishguard extra services are not OA? I thought it would be a bit strange if they were, since the diagrams are interleaved with existing services without the long layovers in Cardiff experienced with the WAG expresses.

The Fishguard services are not O/A, whereas the DVT/67 from September is being paid to run like Gerald on a specific service only,(Holyhead/Cardiff) with funding agreed on a annual basis, £1.9 ,millions is the first years subsidy.
The funding can be withdrawn at any time,but unlikely due to the Capitol cost WG paid ATW to access stock. But we will see if the eight hour hangover can be made more sober from December.
Bob

 

[Michael.Y]

As little sense as it is to leave a trainset unused for six-eight hours a day, it makes even less sense to leave two additional potential trainsets unused. Wouldn't hurt to use an additional set for an additional franchise train during the day.

 

[merlodlliw]

As little sense as it is to leave a trainset unused for six-eight hours a day, it makes even less sense to leave two additional potential trainsets unused. Wouldn't hurt to use an additional set for an additional franchise train during the day.

I agree Michael Y, but who will pay, ATW wont,

Bob

 

[PHILIPE]

The Fishguard services are not O/A, whereas the DVT/67 from September is being paid to run like Gerald on a specific service only,(Holyhead/Cardiff) with funding agreed on a annual basis, £1.9 ,millions is the first years subsidy.
The funding can be withdrawn at any time,but unlikely due to the Capitol cost WG paid ATW to access stock. But we will see if the eight hour hangover can be made more sober from December.
Bob

Would be problems with Fishguard anyway as the train would get turned as it goes via Carmarthen avoider on outward but via station on return. This would put he DVT the wrong end as I assume it would be leading or trailing in a particular position like Virgin & ECML.

 

[Rhydgaled]

the DVT/67 from September is being paid to run like Gerald on a specific service only,(Holyhead/Cardiff) with funding agreed on a annual basis, £1.9 ,millions is the first years subsidy.

So £1.9m for new WAG Express with DVT from Sept 2012 to Sept 2013. What happened to the £3.5m (or was it £2.5m) I seem to remember you reporting was paid for three years of 67 + DVT starting Dec 2011? Have ATW refunded that (minus the cost of refurbishing the mark3 stock, 67s and DVTs)?

Would be problems with Fishguard anyway as the train would get turned as it goes via Carmarthen avoider on outward but via station on return. This would put he DVT the wrong end as I assume it would be leading or trailing in a particular position like Virgin & ECML.

Filling the long downtime in the 67 + DVT diagram by sending out on the Fishguard boat train sounds sensible in some respects, but I'm not sure a train of that length would be needed most of the time. A single 158 most of the time, with 4-car 158, 3-car 175 or LHCS rake on the few busy days when it gets strengthened, would do nicely I think.

I believe the DVTs with other TOCs are generally kept at the same end for easier access to/from the loco depot, enabling the loco to be swapped easily at the terminus, rather than the loco being trapped at the wrong end of the platform. With Cardiff Central being a through station, Canton seeming to have a fair amount of shuting space and there being (even with the Fishguard Flyer added to the diagram) a fair amount of idle time between services, I would make an uneducated guess that it doesn't matter which way round the set is.

As little sense as it is to leave a trainset unused for six-eight hours a day, it makes even less sense to leave two additional potential trainsets unused. Wouldn't hurt to use an additional set for an additional franchise train during the day.

The two additional potential trainsets being the mark2s? I would suggest some (very minor) modifications should be carried out to the brake coaches to provide wheelchair access (they still wouldn't be too high up the accessibility stakes granted) and that gives you one rake (unless you can use the one spare mark3 rake as the spare for the service mark3 rake and 2 mark2 rakes), which could be added to if you make the stored ATW mark2s serviceable again. How easy/hard/cheap/expensive that would be I've no idea, it might just be a matter of cleaning them or it might require major corrosion repairs. If the latter, it is unlikely to be worth resurecting them given they will never be fully accessible and hence almost certainly won't be allowed to run from Jan 1st 2020 onwards.

 

[merlodlliw]

So £1.9m for new WAG Express with DVT from Sept 2012 to Sept 2013. What happened to the £3.5m (or was it £2.5m) I seem to remember you reporting was paid for three years of 67 + DVT starting Dec 2011? Have ATW refunded that (minus the cost of refurbishing the mark3 stock, 67s and DVTs)?

The £3.5Millions was used to access /refurbish stock etc, It did surprise me £1.9millions will also be given in WG subsidy for year one to run it,the past Minister said it would be more viable to hire in over a fixed period(if I recall five years was mentioned), than year to year like Gerald.IWJ signed off the £3.5Millions & should have commenced Dec 2011.

Filling the long downtime in the 67 + DVT diagram by sending out on the Fishguard boat train sounds sensible in some respects, but I'm not sure a train of that length would be needed most of the time. A single 158 most of the time, with 4-car 158, 3-car 175 or LHCS rake on the few busy days when it gets strengthened, would do nicely I think.

I believe the DVTs with other TOCs are generally kept at the same end for easier access to/from the loco depot, enabling the loco to be swapped easily at the terminus, rather than the loco being trapped at the wrong end of the platform. With Cardiff Central being a through station, Canton seeming to have a fair amount of shuting space and there being (even with the Fishguard Flyer added to the diagram) a fair amount of idle time between services, I would make an uneducated guess that it doesn't matter which way round the set is.

The two additional potential trainsets being the mark2s? I would suggest some (very minor) modifications should be carried out to the brake coaches to provide wheelchair access (they still wouldn't be too high up the accessibility stakes granted) and that gives you one rake (unless you can use the one spare mark3 rake as the spare for the service mark3 rake and 2 mark2 rakes), which could be added to if you make the stored ATW mark2s serviceable again. How easy/hard/cheap/expensive that would be I've no idea, it might just be a matter of cleaning them or it might require major corrosion repairs. If the latter, it is unlikely to be worth resurecting them given they will never be fully accessible and hence almost certainly won't be allowed to run from Jan 1st 2020 onwards.

As for turning, Chester changes push pull direction anyway,

 

[Michael.Y]

Fans of LHS should keep an eye and ear out for details of December's timetable changes.

 

[Gareth Marston]

latest I've heard is ATW are going to refurb the Mk3 with same seats as 158's.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Fans of LHS should keep an eye and ear out for details of December's timetable changes.

More coming than just the mark3s and DVTs launching in September then? More mark3s or a use for more of ATW's mark2 fleet at last?

 

[Michael.Y]

latest I've heard is ATW are going to refurb the Mk3 with same seats as 158's.

Correct - makes sense, given that the seats are the same type used in the FGW HST Mk3s.

More coming than just the mark3s and DVTs launching in September then? More mark3s or a use for more of ATW's mark2 fleet at last?

Will let you know soon when I have more concrete details.