Not so Greater Anglia

[bezzer]

Two airports, one of which is fairly important and a pretty busy London terminus. What about the class 170, 153 and 156's, are they not leased or are they actually owned?

Sorry I think they are included in the 250. Whatever, alot less trains than Northern. And alot more than the few sprinters that Ginger refers too.

Not many people see Stansted nowadays as a key airport. It is now no longer considered a good internaitonal airport. Numbers are down in their millions. Southend is yet to get established but will probably take over from Stansted.

I am sure Lime Street, New Street, Picadilly are all huge, busy stations competing with Liverpool Street

 

[NLC1072]

Confirmed that NXRR are still used by GA. 3 buses where initially sent to both Diss & Norwich. I would imagine Diss to be far worse in that situation as trains arrive with nowhere to go, whilst at Norwich all intending London passengers would be sent on the xx.40 Cambridge/xx.57 Lime St (EMT) via Ely. Only those for stations through to Essex would need board a bus.

Yeah, but compare the Abellio buses from Kent they hired in to do rail replacement along the metro, they all got lost!

 

[tbtc]

a company with no track record of running london commuter operations (a few pacers around leeds certainly doesnt count)

Of course London commuters are precious people and totally different to commuters in any other part of the country - there's no way that running commuter trains into Leeds/ Manchester / Liverpool/ Newcastle etc could be of any relevance.

 

[O L Leigh]

The key factor was that GA said they would improve the customer satisfaction scores. So clearly the jury is still out.

O L Leigh

 

[andykn]

There were three buses at Diss at 0950. Despite popular belief, rail replacement buses are not immediately on hand and take time to arrange and get them to site.

Given the buses were ordered around 0930, 20 minutes does not seem at all bad. Perhaps three were all that were available in that area at that time.

That surprises me, I thought we were the first trains turned round at Diss, we got in at 10.05 and there was only one bus. It sounds and looked like at least one of the 3 Norwich buses should have been sent to Diss instead, certainly no-one from Norwich got bussed in for my train turned round at Diss.

 

[ginger]

The key factor was that GA said they would improve the customer satisfaction scores. So clearly the jury is still out.

O L Leigh

so the fare paying customers WILL have a say!!! at last! after all we pay for the so called service!

 

[OxtedL]

Open question: What constitutes trolling?

 

[O L Leigh]

Er, customer satisfaction scores have been collected for some years. Surely this is hardly news...?

But it seems your beef is primarily with the DfT. GA et al cannot be blamed for bidding for a franchise using the system provided for them and then winning under the terms they did. If you feel that revenue should be reinvested (as I'm sure the users of MANY other TOCs do) then you should be directing your tirades elsewhere.

O L Leigh (Mr)

 

[IanXC]

If you feel that revenue should be reinvested (as I'm sure the users of MANY other TOCs do) then you should be directing your tirades elsewhere.

O L Leigh (Mr)

You're absolutely right that this is often forgotten. Admittedly my experience is with Northern, but once the set up is explained to their regular commuters I find that they generally understand that the operator of the franchise is doing a good job given the situation it finds itself in.

 

[captainbigun]

I am sure Lime Street, New Street, Picadilly are all huge, busy stations competing with Liverpool Street

I think you need to look at peak time passenger numbers. Comparing Man Picc etc to LST is chalk and cheese.

I'm not sure what the comparison is between the franchises, they are completely different beasts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The key factor was that GA said they would improve the customer satisfaction scores. So clearly the jury is still out.

O L Leigh

I had my first trundle on a 379 from Stansted last Friday (large diversion due to Ilford fatality). Nice enough inside, but the ride was awful, more awful than I recall in a 317 on the route when I used it for commuting. Compared to the GE the WA appears to need a lot of investment in infrastructure (specifically track).

I think GA will probably raise the score. But, could they replicate over a bigger period? There's a large honeymoon factor (as a %) in their operation of the franchise given it's short tenure.

 

[bezzer]

I think GA will probably raise the score. But, could they replicate over a bigger period? There's a large honeymoon factor (as a %) in their operation of the franchise given it's short tenure.

And that is exactly the point. No one knows what will happen. No one can possibly know after just 3 months which is why the whingers, grumblers, complainers need to get in the real world and give it a few more months yet.

 

[tbtc]

I think you need to look at peak time passenger numbers. Comparing Man Picc etc to LST is chalk and cheese.

I'm not sure what the comparison is between the franchises, they are completely different beasts

I'm honestly not sure what experience in running other franchises is most important:

• Nobody is expecting the managers to actually drive the trains or do the maintenance
• The timetables are pretty much set in stone for now (they aren't ripping it up to start again)
• The staffing rotas and maintenance schedules need planning
• There needs to be some "disruption management"/ updating passengers when things go wrong/ being able to organise alternative transport at short notice

...however you get a lot of comments like "Operator X shouldn't get Franchise Y because they've got no experience of running EMUs/ Pacers/ long distance services" - really the managers are just managing resources (staff, trains) - they don't need to be able to fill all roles themselves.

 

[Skimble19]

Open question: What constitutes trolling?

Having just read through my "unread posts" on this thread (over 5 pages worth!) I think I'm with you on this.. The fact he's actually getting decent replies is quite funny tbh.

 

[CDM]

As for your commuter. Well the facts are these :-

SWT (16 years with the franchise), I would expect it too be fantastic. Southern -12 years, again I would expect it to be all dancing, Virgin Trains -15 years, First Great Western -13 years, NXEA - 8 years of rubbish; GREATER ANGLIA - 3 months. Getting the picture yet?

It's a waste of breath trying to reason with ginger you know.

I am however always so impressed by his amazing in depth knowledge about the company - at least I'm asuming he must have, given that so much of what he says about the company itself (i.e. not relating to his personal journey experience) is stated as a matter of fact.

 

[HH]

Point 3. Abelio are NOT losing a single penny. This is a short term management contract where they received a fee. The Dft is taking ALL the revenue risk meaning that every single penny of profit (and there is lots) goes back to the treasury. Abelio still get the fat fee even if they cock up - which they do on a regular basis - therefore there is NO incentive for them to improve things, other than the feeble improvements they set out in their bid!

As no-one else has picked you up on this load of bollocks I guess it is down to me.

A. DfT is NOT taking all revenue risk. They took risk up to a defined point and Abellio take what's beyond that. Given the downturn in the economy between bid and taking over the franchise they are taking a bath. DfT are still getting their full premium.

B. This is not a management contract. Outside the revenue risk outlined above, Abellio take full risk on all costs.

C. Abellio bid a very low profit margin and they are certainly doing less well than they bid.

D. Abellio are very committed to making improvements because they want to show DfT what they can do. Only time will tell if their ambitions outstrip their abilities.

Essentially you know nothing, but this doesn't seem to stop you shooting off your fat mouth.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I'll be having my first proper day out on Greater Anglia tomorrow, along the GEML; I've used them before but only for getting around East London. I travelled on NXEA quite a lot, and remember them well, so it will be fun to compare the two.

 

[ginger]

As no-one else has picked you up on this load of bollocks I guess it is down to me.

A. DfT is NOT taking all revenue risk. They took risk up to a defined point and Abellio take what's beyond that. Given the downturn in the economy between bid and taking over the franchise they are taking a bath. DfT are still getting their full premium.

B. This is not a management contract. Outside the revenue risk outlined above, Abellio take full risk on all costs.

C. Abellio bid a very low profit margin and they are certainly doing less well than they bid.

D. Abellio are very committed to making improvements because they want to show DfT what they can do. Only time will tell if their ambitions outstrip their abilities.

let's ignore your petty childish purile outburst and focus on the facts....

refer the enclosed

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/greater-anglia-franchise/invitationtotender.pdf

note page 22 section 3.2.1. "the department takes the revenue risk".....it then goes on to say that over and above the targets set then they will share 50/50. Clearly they have overbid their assumptions....from a greedy TOC? NEVER!

It also states that a fee is to be agreed to run the service for the Management Contract!

sounds like your points refer to the 50/50 arrangement and the fact they have assumed unwisely that are gods are can magic even more revenue in the middle of the worse financial crisis since the 1930s! Competent?

at present they are struggling to turn out a train that is not filthy.... strangely yellowly brown 321s which (despite being "deep cleaned") are NOT being cleaned on a regular basis so the result.....filthy again! All that good work and promise undone by yet more penny pinching and incompetence.....oh and the toilets! Disgraceful!

Now let's give them some credit....they havent done the 360s yet (which are disgusting as well) but what is the point in "deep cleaning" them and making a song a huge song and dance about it, and do nothing about the threadbare seats and let them get filthy again by NOT cleaning them regularly??? Any thoughts? And you all seem to think this is a competent TOC?

4 months in and zero improvement to train presentation and conditions for passengers....you wonder why we are sceptical!

 

[dk1]

Our Intercity sets are getting the added treatment of cleaners getting on en-route aswell as at turnrounds. Don't think deep cleaning has got under way yet, but they don't look too bad to me.

The locals units seem much better.

Cannot comment to much on the commuter emu's apart from they look cleaner externally & very few that i pass at speed seem to have grafitti adorning their front ends as was such a trademark of the hiddeous National Express era.

 

[OxtedL]

Nothing ginger has said on this entire thread has been in any sense objective. At all.

I think therefore it may be best not to rise any further to it?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A tad tricky to keep trains spotless in this weather , don't you think ....

 

[tbtc]

A tad tricky to keep trains spotless in this weather , don't you think ....

I'm sure that the ran is GA's fault too though, in Ginger's world...

 

[ginger]

I'm sure that the ran is GA's fault too though, in Ginger's world...

whats wrong with the carriages washers? simple question!

whats the weather got to do with it? GA were cleaning the exteriors up until a month ago and they had started to look a little better.....and we have more rain in April/May than we have had in the past 12 months?

Simple question really....not "gingers world".....explain it customers who stand and press filthy buttons and get dirty hands when just boarding a train?

and the "clean trains" promise is not "in gingers world" it was a key Abelio promise!

Real world time!

 

[tbtc]

GA were cleaning the exteriors up until a month ago and they had started to look a little better.....

Woah!

You just said something positive?

There is hope!

(I notice no response to your previous "a few Pacers in Leeds" comment)

 

[ginger]

Woah!

You just said something positive?

There is hope!

(I notice no response to your previous "a few Pacers in Leeds" comment)

I was praising the progress to some middle managers 2 months ago but in true false dawn fashion it has slipped again! Even the tweeters acknowledge they have a major problem with "fleet" turning out truely awful trains....

I will be the first to praise any company who comes in and delivers "real" improvements and not just overbids the numbers all the time! They need to seriously up their game!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course London commuters are precious people and totally different to commuters in any other part of the country - there's no way that running commuter trains into Leeds/ Manchester / Liverpool/ Newcastle etc could be of any relevance.

aha! but how can you compare the two? moving 90,000 people in and out of liverpool st each day is not the same as Man Pic / leeds or newcastle by the number published by the Dft recently. Liv St is the 3rd busiest station on the entire network....I have been to all of the other 3 during rush hours and whilst busy the sheer volumes of people at liv st simply doesnt compare....

 

[Skimble19]

4 months in and zero improvement to train presentation and conditions for passengers....you wonder why we are sceptical!

You say "we", but the only person moaning is you.. Time to give your inane chat a rest?

 

[HH]

let's ... focus on the facts....

refer the enclosed

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/greater-anglia-franchise/invitationtotender.pdf

That is the initial ITT. They are working to a Franchise Agreement, which will have changed. You also misunderstand what is written.

The Revenue Share bit means that GA will give 50% of any revenue over what they bid to DfT. It does not mean that DfT are supporting any additional bid revenue over their target.

There is nothing about it being a management contract, because it isn't. Whatever you think you have read is undoubtedly another misunderstanding on your part.

You really shouldn't comment on things that you clearly have no grasp of.

 

[Pugwash]

Originally Posted by ginger

4 months in and zero improvement to train presentation and conditions for passengers....you wonder why we are sceptical!
You say "we", but the only person moaning is you.. Time to give your inane chat a rest?

Speak to most of the passengers they are unhappy with the service and cost. Punctuality is actually down on last year, we have already had service alterations / reduced speed running due to snow and hot weather and it is not even the middle of June.

Most of this is not GA's fault but that of Network Rail, but as passengers we do not pay NR, but Greater Anglia, they should be kicking NR but we don't see it, as long as they can pass the blame and costs on it only effects the passenger. Privatisation has been a disaster for the GA region.

 

[jon0844]

They might be moaning to NR, but will NR take much notice?

What GA will be getting is compensation for delays, and passengers should be making sure to claim for any delays where they can.

 

[CDM]

let's ignore your petty childish purile outburst and focus on the facts....

refer the enclosed

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/greater-anglia-franchise/invitationtotender.pdf

Others have already said plenty on this.
I would refer you to the end of the link you have posted though. The bit where it says "invitation to tender". (i.e. it's not the resulting franchise agreement...)


It was interesting to read your comment about someone making a "petty childish purile outburst" and to "focus on the facts...."
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Most of this is not GA's fault but that of Network Rail, but as passengers we do not pay NR, but Greater Anglia, they should be kicking NR but we don't see it, as long as they can pass the blame and costs on it only effects the passenger.

That is one way of trying to manage the problems, certainly.
After 8 years of NX taking that route though, you might take a view on whether ultimately, it is a successful approach one though.
(Or whether it might be worth trying the different approach that abellio are taking with Network Rail)

 

[GB]

They might be moaning to NR, but will NR take much notice?

What GA will be getting is compensation for delays, and passengers should be making sure to claim for any delays where they can.

Well NR are already taking steps to replace the out dated OLE between LST and Witham.