Guardian: "Penalised train passengers fight ticketing rules"

[Flamingo]

But the tickets I see greatest trouble with, and the ones the press pick on as examples, are Advance, and railcard-discounted. These have the easiest of restrictions - Booked Train Only with one (which IS written on the ticket) and when buying a railcard, the customer signs to say they have been told they must carry the railcard with the ticket.

It doesn't get much simpler than those two conditions, yet 3/4 (or at weekends all) the irregularities I find are one or the other.

 

[Ferret]

Spot on Flamingo. This week I've done one change of route excess, and caught 5 with Advances on the wrong train, and 2 with out of date railcards. The change of route excess was a passenger error too - given it was printed clearly on the ticket 'route not via Darlington'. People really don't help themselves....

 

[AndyLandy]

But the tickets I see greatest trouble with, and the ones the press pick on as examples, are Advance, and railcard-discounted. These have the easiest of restrictions - Booked Train Only with one (which IS written on the ticket) and when buying a railcard, the customer signs to say they have been told they must carry the railcard with the ticket.

It doesn't get much simpler than those two conditions, yet 3/4 (or at weekends all) the irregularities I find are one or the other.

That's actually quite interesting. You're quite right that whatever debate has been had about AP fares, the terms are pretty simple to understand. The same for railcards. There's little excuse for not understanding that.

I wonder how many trains a day are "unexpected peak" ones. Most people with an Offpeak ticket are savvy enough to know that the 0700 service to London is out-of-bounds. So, where are there services that look like they ought to be offpeak, but aren't?

I wonder if in fact the inverse is true. Quite by chance, I discovered that a Southampton to Hartford via London offpeak ticket is valid by easement for departures as early as 0730 from Southampton. I'd never have guessed that might be the case!

 

[GadgetMan]

So, where are there services that look like they ought to be offpeak, but aren't?

On XC I regularly come across passengers boarding trains with off-peak tickets between 9:00 and 9:30am as a significant number of passengers believe (understandably) that peak time ends at 9am as that is what they have gotten used to.

 

[andykn]

Spot on Flamingo. This week I've done one change of route excess, and caught 5 with Advances on the wrong train, and 2 with out of date railcards. The change of route excess was a passenger error too - given it was printed clearly on the ticket 'route not via Darlington'. People really don't help themselves....

Until the last couple of years my Network South East card was pretty much never checked on board. Maybe twice in 10 years. It's much more frequent now but still far from 100%. If, like me, you use ticket machines a lot rather than the manned counter it's very easy to let your travelcard get out of date.

Of course it's then an open and shut case that you have to pay up. Similarly, if you forget your card it must be blindingly obvious that you also have to pay up - otherwsie what's the point of paying for the card if you can just claim to have one at home.

 

[CNash]

IIRC, you can just claim to have one at home - you just have to go and get it, then present it (along with any penalty fares etc. issued) at a ticket office. But you can only do this twice a year.

In fact, here's the relevant bit of the NRCoC:

If, subsequently, you present at the office where the Season Ticket was issued.
(a) the Season Ticket;
(b) the photocard, if required; and
(c) the additional tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices, the relevant Train Company may, at its discretion, refund any fares paid in accordance with Condition 2 or 4 less a reasonable administration charge (not exceeding £10). No more than two such claims will be considered in any 12 month period regardless of the number of Season Tickets purchased in that time.

 

[Flamingo]

IIRC, you can just claim to have one at home - you just have to go and get it, then present it (along with any penalty fares etc. issued) at a ticket office. But you can only do this twice a year.

In fact, here's the relevant bit of the NRCoC:

That is photocards associated with season tickets. I was referring to YP/NSE/DSB/SNR/FAM/HMF railcards

 

[CNash]

Ah, fair enough. Always thought you could do that with railcards too. Guess not.... lucky I've never left my railcard behind, then!

 

[Flamingo]

Apparently Crosscountry will, everybody else, you are liable for a full open single.

 

[neilmc]

Apparently Crosscountry will, everybody else, you are liable for a full open single.

But you should be able to, if you are a genuine railcard holder. Why not charge the excess to the appropriate non-railcard fare which will be refundable once the correct railcard is produced?

If you have an advance ticket on the wrong train, why not charge the difference between the advance ticket cost and the fare for the appropriate journey if you had bought on the day, whether peak or off-peak?

And why insist on the seat reservation with an advance ticket? Just another useless piece of card, except that with a bit of luck you might have left it behind and the TOC is quids in (again).

It's not as though the people who have been caught have no ticket whatsoever, they have paid for their journey but have had a delay or mishap, and I am convinced that the TOCs are waiting and hoping to catch people so they can charge them not only their original (lost) fare but way in excess of what they would have had to pay at the station. It's this kind of thing which makes reasonable ordinary people very angry and they are not going to be any less so when a combination of rail industry employees and specialists in split tickets and easements tell them they're stupid.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But you should be able to, if you are a genuine railcard holder. Why not charge the excess to the appropriate non-railcard fare which will be refundable once the correct railcard is produced? ....

I think we hit the realms of conditions again, it is the holder's responsibility to have the railcard on them, not the railway's. Every company will, if evidence of a railcard is provided, refund the cost of the discounted ticket, minus an admin fee (as if you didn't use the ticket), I don't think this is unreasonable.

....If you have an advance ticket on the wrong train, why not charge the difference between the advance ticket cost and the fare for the appropriate journey if you had bought on the day, whether peak or off-peak?....

I think we have been there a few times in this thread, but to save you reading it back, what would there be to stop me buying up advance tickets knowing that if I miss the train I only have to pay what I would have paid had I not bothered specifying a train? and if I do make it, I have saved money! Nothing really in it for the railway.

....And why insist on the seat reservation with an advance ticket? Just another useless piece of card, except that with a bit of luck you might have left it behind and the TOC is quids in (again).

A reservation proves which train(s) you are booked on.

....It's not as though the people who have been caught have no ticket whatsoever, they have paid for their journey but have had a delay or mishap, and I am convinced that the TOCs are waiting and hoping to catch people so they can charge them not only their original (lost) fare but way in excess of what they would have had to pay at the station. It's this kind of thing which makes reasonable ordinary people very angry and they are not going to be any less so when a combination of rail industry employees and specialists in split tickets and easements tell them they're stupid.

S**t happens, we all know that, but when the railway suffers from thing beyond their control, the passengers don't give up on their conditions, so why should the TOCs?

If everyone who claimed something beyond their control held them up was let off, no one would pay the extra fare. Why? Because no-one would claim anything else!

 

[island]

But you should be able to, if you are a genuine railcard holder. Why not charge the excess to the appropriate non-railcard fare which will be refundable once the correct railcard is produced?

If you have an advance ticket on the wrong train, why not charge the difference between the advance ticket cost and the fare for the appropriate journey if you had bought on the day, whether peak or off-peak?

And why insist on the seat reservation with an advance ticket? Just another useless piece of card, except that with a bit of luck you might have left it behind and the TOC is quids in (again).

I'm sure these have all been answered already on this thread, but I'll humour you.

1. Because this allows most railcards to be shared, as only Two Together and 16-25 Railcards (to my knowledge) have photocards. Person A carries the railcard, and persons B, C, and D get discounted tickets, pay the excess if caught, and get it refunded later.

2. Because then everyone buys the cheapest advance ticket for the day of their journey and only pays the excess if caught.

3. Because there is no other convenient way to know what train the ticket is valid on. Plus this opens the way for the ticket and the reservation to both be used by separate people as though they were two tickets.

Each of these means revenue is lost to the railway, so fares go up for genuine passengers. No thanks.

 

[Flamingo]

It's not as though the people who have been caught have no ticket whatsoever, they have paid for their journey but have had a delay or mishap, and I am convinced that the TOCs are waiting and hoping to catch people so they can charge them not only their original (lost) fare but way in excess of what they would have had to pay at the station. It's this kind of thing which makes reasonable ordinary people very angry and they are not going to be any less so when a combination of rail industry employees and specialists in split tickets and easements tell them they're stupid.

There are set procedures for people that have delays during their journies to mitigate the effect of these delays. People who have delays getting to the station? Well, an approach to the station staff (who will be aware of local conditions) will usually result in an endorsment of the ticket for later travel. Missed alarm clocks do not count as the railways problem.

TOC's would prefer that people stick to their advance tickets, as that is the train they are booked on, and charging people up only causes hassle for staff who have to do so. TOC's do not set out to trap passengers, indeed, staff are given instructions NOT to charge people who are liable, if it is going to cause confrontation, and potential delays.

The thing to remember about Advance tickets is that they started out as a way for TOC's to put bums on seats on quieter trains, and to direct people onto these quieter trains. When this becomes abused enough, then there will be nothing in it for TOC's, and they will discontinue them as more hassle than they are worth.

 

[CNash]

1. Because this allows most railcards to be shared, as only Two Together and 16-25 Railcards (to my knowledge) have photocards. Person A carries the railcard, and persons B, C, and D get discounted tickets, pay the excess if caught, and get it refunded later.

Under a hypothetical system such as the one proposed, they'd presumably get it refunded by taking the railcard and excessed ticket to the ticket office and sorting it out there, right? If I were a clever TOC, the refund would be logged in a central database somewhere, so that the same railcard can't be used to refund multiple excessed tickets that have been bought for the same journey at the same time...

 

[Flamingo]

Under a hypothetical system such as the one proposed, they'd presumably get it refunded by taking the railcard and excessed ticket to the ticket office and sorting it out there, right? If I were a clever TOC, the refund would be logged in a central database somewhere, so that the same railcard can't be used to refund multiple excessed tickets that have been bought for the same journey at the same time...

All the permutations have been done on here ad nauseum.

The bottom line is that the basic condition of a railcard is it has to be carried along with the ticket to validate the ticket. If it is not, the ticket is invalid.

All the systems proposed suffer from the basic flaw that they would cost TOC's money to implement, and no way to cover the overheads, therefore there is no economic grounds to cover the cost of the schemes by increasing the overheads for no benefit to either the railway, the fare-paying passenger or the taxpayer subsidising the whole mess.

 

[island]

All the permutations have been done on here ad nauseum.

The bottom line is that the basic condition of a railcard is it has to be carried along with the ticket to validate the ticket. If it is not, the ticket is invalid.

All the systems proposed suffer from the basic flaw that they would cost TOC's money to implement, and no way to cover the overheads, therefore there is no economic grounds to cover the cost of the schemes by increasing the overheads for no benefit to either the railway, the fare-paying passenger or the taxpayer subsidising the whole mess.

You're already too nice charging people an SSS when they don't have a railcard!

 

[Flamingo]

You're already too nice charging people an SSS when they don't have a railcard!

I usually excess them, they only get an sss if they piddle me off. They still whinge, moan and write in to complain.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's not as though the people who have been caught have no ticket whatsoever, they have paid for their journey but have had a delay or mishap, and I am convinced that the TOCs are waiting and hoping to catch people so they can charge them not only their original (lost) fare but way in excess of what they would have had to pay at the station. It's this kind of thing which makes reasonable ordinary people very angry and they are not going to be any less so when a combination of rail industry employees and specialists in split tickets and easements tell them they're stupid.

Passengers will usually claim whatever rights they have in the contract with the TOC - including claiming compensation for delays where the TOC had the misfortune to operate a train which strikes and kills a suicidal person.

That's not to undermine your point, just an illustration.

 

[IanXC]

Under a hypothetical system such as the one proposed, they'd presumably get it refunded by taking the railcard and excessed ticket to the ticket office and sorting it out there, right? If I were a clever TOC, the refund would be logged in a central database somewhere, so that the same railcard can't be used to refund multiple excessed tickets that have been bought for the same journey at the same time...

Save on the database.. why not just punch a hole in the railcard each time. Once its illegible/has 2 holes in it/has fallen apart, its no longer valid and the holder must buy a new railcard!

Thinking about it, how is the 2 refunds for season tickets administered?

 

[AlterEgo]

Thinking about it, how is the 2 refunds for season tickets administered?

There's a database system.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Save on the database.. why not just punch a hole in the railcard each time.

That's a really fantastic idea. You'd need a pretty hefty puncher to make a hole in the hard plastic online-issued cards, but apart from that it seems like a really feasible and workable idea.

 

[Flamingo]

That's a really fantastic idea. You'd need a pretty hefty puncher to make a hole in the hard plastic online-issued cards, but apart from that it seems like a really feasible and workable idea.

Until somebody has to apply by post...

 

[Paul Kelly]

Send the railcard in the post and have it sent back with a hole in it?

 

[AlterEgo]

Send the railcard in the post and have it sent back with a hole in it?

Not really workable to send it in the post - it could take weeks to return, and you may need to use the Railcard!

 

[island]

Until somebody has to apply by post...

Just make them apply in a station. Maybe it might make them think again about forgetting their Railcard.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Not really workable to send it in the post - it could take weeks to return, and you may need to use the Railcard!

Then you either go to the bother of bringing it into a station for the refund, or just put up with the inconvenience caused by your mistake! Personally I think it would be fine (for the same reasons; the passenger has made a mistake and they are being offered a major favour in being allowed a refund of the excess they paid) if attendance at a station for the refund was absolutely required and if it couldn't be done by post.

 

[AndyLandy]

Just make them apply in a station. Maybe it might make them think again about forgetting their Railcard.

Or just require them to have the railcard at the time of travel. Anything else is far too open to abuse.

 

[island]

Or just require them to have the railcard at the time of travel. Anything else is far too open to abuse.

To be clear, that is my preferred solution also. I have two Railcards and they are not that hard to remember

 

[IanXC]

Until somebody has to apply by post...

Well I'd say if someone wants to apply by post they will just have to put up with not having (and not being able to use) their railcard for however long! Its not as if the overwhelming majority of journeys involve starting/finishing/interchanging at a manned station, so they could just wait until their next journey.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

But the tickets I see greatest trouble with, and the ones the press pick on as examples, are Advance, and railcard-discounted. These have the easiest of restrictions - Booked Train Only with one (which IS written on the ticket) and when buying a railcard, the customer signs to say they have been told they must carry the railcard with the ticket.

It doesn't get much simpler than those two conditions, yet 3/4 (or at weekends all) the irregularities I find are one or the other.

I agree with this point.

I deal with many irregularities, and they fall into 3 categories in order of frequency (most frequent first):

a) Advance ticket wrong train / no reservation (see below)
b) Non existent / out of date Railcard
c) Everything else.

Of the above:

a) If someone has lost their reservation I can phone through to control and check the reservation, which I always do. About 80% of the time they are on the wrong train. Now, have they lost the reservation genuinely and can't remember which train they are on, or have they conveniently lost the reservation to try and fool me into letting them travel on a train their ticket isn't valid for?

b) 90% of the time is is with Y-P cards. I'm amazed by how many people have picked up the wrong jacket / wallet / handbag when they left home (and hence left their railcard in their other jacket / wallet / handbag) but manage to have everything else they could possibly need in the jacket / wallet / handbag they have brought with them.

c) The problems with people using off-peak tickets at invalid times are minimal.