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Save Our Railway - Stranraer

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yorksrob

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Some serious questions here ...especially with the long term decline of the passenger traffic and the relative sparseness of the population.

Ask yourself , would you build this railway now ....?

The number of times I've pointed out how well used a potential re-opening would probably have been had it not been closed in the first place - only to be told that just because an existing railway might have done well, that doesn't justify the expense of re-opening.

I guess by a similar token, just because we might not necessarily have gone to the expense of building a particular railway today, that's no excuse not to continue operating an existing one.
 
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ainsworth74

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Ask yourself , would you build this railway now ....?

That depends. What other lines are already open? Are there other more important areas that need a line? What sort of budget do we have for building new lines? What are the road links like to this area? Is the area going to be significantly disadvantaged if it does not have a rail link? Would be the first I'd ask. I can't give a simple yes/no answer to that question without considering the wider context.
 

tbtc

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Some serious questions here ...especially with the long term decline of the passenger traffic and the relative sparseness of the population.

Ask yourself , would you build this railway now ....?

At the moment there are around 50,000 people using Stranraer station each year (plus five thousand at Barrhill, the only station in the forty-something miles between Stranraer and Girvan). So roughly enough people to fit into one Pacer a day?

If the line had been closed fifty years ago (south of Girvan) then I'd bet that there'd be a campaign to reopen it which claimed the line would have 100.000 passengers a year. However the reality is that the passenger numbers aren't that great.
 

ainsworth74

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If the line had been closed fifty years ago (south of Girvan) then I'd bet that there'd be a campaign to reopen it which claimed the line would have 100.000 passengers a year. However the reality is that the passenger numbers aren't that great.

Then again the timetable isn't really designed to suit the people of Stranraer is it? If it the timetable was actually re-cast with the needs of the people and perhaps with a slightly increased frequency you could achieve somewhere in the region of 100,000 passengers per year.
 

tbtc

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Then again the timetable isn't really designed to suit the people of Stranraer is it? If it the timetable was actually re-cast with the needs of the people and perhaps with a slightly increased frequency you could achieve somewhere in the region of 100,000 passengers per year.

True - and I've suggested a clockface shuttle a few times on here.

All you need are three 153s. Two to provide a bi-hourly service from Kilmarnock to Stranraer and one to provide a bi-hourly Kilmarnock - Girvan shuttle (dovetailing to provide an hourly service from Killie to Ayr and Girvan).

Kilmarnock to Ayr must be one of the worst frequencies between two decent sized places in Scotland (both around 45,000) that are just fifteen miles apart.

At the moment the 156s are wasted on the Stranraer route, but a more straightforward timetable (to suit locals, not historic ferry times) could see a big improvement).
 

Paul Kelly

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To people who say that the station is an eyesore, I agree - but I think the bulk of the problem is the ugly corrugated metal canopy and walkway that obscure the station itself. The actual station building is IMHO quite an attractive old wooden-clad building (see picture below) and could be really quite an attractive historic centrepiece to a redeveloped harbour area, if the ugly later additions were tidied up.

p9187.jpg
 

ashworth

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Then again the timetable isn't really designed to suit the people of Stranraer is it? If it the timetable was actually re-cast with the needs of the people and perhaps with a slightly increased frequency you could achieve somewhere in the region of 100,000 passengers per year.

I agree that the timetable needs to be recast to suit local people. I was on holiday in the area a few years ago and considered using the line for day trips. It wasn't just the inconvenient timings but also the high prices for fairly local journeys that made me decide to travel by car.

The Cheapest Day Return fares from Stranraer are currently as follows:
Barrhill - £13.60
Girvan - £14.60
Ayr - £18.10
Kilmarnock - £27.80
Glasgow - £29.60
Paisley - £37.80
Carlisle - £52.20

These are not really the sort of fares people are willing to pay for relatively local journeys that can easily be done by road.

How many people from the remote community at Barrhill for example is going to pay £13.60 return to go into Stranraer to do their weekly shopping at Tesco!
 

harz99

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True - and I've suggested a clockface shuttle a few times on here.

All you need are three 153s. Two to provide a bi-hourly service from Kilmarnock to Stranraer and one to provide a bi-hourly Kilmarnock - Girvan shuttle (dovetailing to provide an hourly service from Killie to Ayr and Girvan).

Kilmarnock to Ayr must be one of the worst frequencies between two decent sized places in Scotland (both around 45,000) that are just fifteen miles apart.

At the moment the 156s are wasted on the Stranraer route, but a more straightforward timetable (to suit locals, not historic ferry times) could see a big improvement).

Trouble is that is one more unit than currently used to provide the existing service; also there are certain workings now which still run near full 156s, so a 153 would not suffice.

SAYLSA has already put forward various suggestions as to how to improve the service, but Transport Scotland and Scotrail are unable to/will not provide any addtional resources.

As Ashworth has highlighted the fares are also a major stumbling block. It has been suggested that something akin to the London Travelcard add ons could be made to the SPT Daytripper for pax from Stranraer but again no one is able/willing.

The one thing being done that may make a difference is the PTI; but that doesn't have to mean losing the old Harbour Station and trackwork. It is perfectly possible to slew the new station and trackwork away from the existing to enable that to remain connected, maybe rationalised slightly, and converted to groundframe operation for those infrequent occasions when loco hauled trains run to Stranraer. Yet again, no one on either side of the retain/demolish brigades appears to be able to accept that as a compromise for that particular problem.
 

Wath Yard

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I agree that the timetable needs to be recast to suit local people. I was on holiday in the area a few years ago and considered using the line for day trips. It wasn't just the inconvenient timings but also the high prices for fairly local journeys that made me decide to travel by car.

The Cheapest Day Return fares from Stranraer are currently as follows:
Barrhill - £13.60
Girvan - £14.60
Ayr - £18.10
Kilmarnock - £27.80
Glasgow - £29.60
Paisley - £37.80
Carlisle - £52.20

These are not really the sort of fares people are willing to pay for relatively local journeys that can easily be done by road.

How many people from the remote community at Barrhill for example is going to pay £13.60 return to go into Stranraer to do their weekly shopping at Tesco!

Stranraer - Glasgow return is £26.90 for a journey of 200 miles. That is not a local journey and represents excellent value. It is also possible to get to Glasgow before 10:00 and leave at 22:30. A pretty full day out I would suggest.

There have been many excuses on this thread for why people couldn't possibly use the service. Well, why must the line be kept open then?
 

johnnychips

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There have been many excuses on this thread for why people couldn't possibly use the service. Well, why must the line be kept open then?

It could be a struggle unless you could promote it as a tourist line a la Settle-Carlisle.

It's 40 miles about to Girvan; there don't seem to be any intervening opportunities for new stations (Barrhill seems to be the only settlement). The population of Stranraer is only about 11000. Are the fleshpots of Ayr, Glasgow and Kilmarnock that attractive for frequent travel?

Line speeds don't seem too bad but I don't know what the road is like or what bus competition there is. The return fare to Glasgow at £26-90 certainly is a bargain although you could get a day trip from Cairnryan to Belfast for £19 with an early start!

EDIT: There seem to be three coaches a day to Glasgow taking just over 2.5 hours; other convoluted routes are possible taking longer with changes. Not checked fares. This is about 10-20 minutes slower than direct trains or by changing at Ayr.
 
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Drimnagh Road

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The problem with the line needs to be looked beyond Stranraer itself. You also have, what, 4 i think manned signal boxes on the most lightly part used of the line. If the timetables are recast (say for example a shuttle Stran-Ayr) is there scope for closing one or two boxes? While i don't generally agree with taking out block sections freight is not an issue south of Girvan so it shouldn't result in loss of too many paths
 

Bruce Warren

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Timetabling seems to be difficult to sort out, although I understand Transport
Scotland have said they are keeping an eye on it. What that means in practice I have no idea.

Last year Scotrail wanted to move the early Stranraer - Glasgow train
back an hour to arrive before 9 and allow commuting for the first time.

Unfortunately this would have made it awkward for the hundred or so students
going to Ayr college on that train and after some vociferous local opposition the
idea was withdrawn.

Had there been enough money for two trains, then I imagine it would have been possible
to satisfy both groups.

I'm assuming the reasoning behind the commuter service is that 1 regular
traveller is worth 300 tourists, especially now the ships have gone.

There is a local perception that Stranraer fares are unfairly high compared to
those from other stations on the line. The local MP has been making noises
about this but so far nothing has happened yet. It seems to be because
Stranraer is outside the SPT area and thus does not qualify for fare subsidy,
and D&G Council have no money to subsidise their end.
 
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bkhtele

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I agree with a lot that has been said this is a lovely route and traffic should be encouraged.
1. The time table say every 2 hours with a regular pattern best for locals & ferry passengers
2. Current prices do not make sense. There must be some way to take the super Strathclyde day rider ticket which is valid to Barhill and sell an add on say £5 way some agreement to share sales. This is a political problem stopping people using the train from Barrhill to Stranraer.
3. Contine to allow the rail sail tickets to be valid to Stranraer, give people the choice ride on a bus on a dangerously narrow road from Ayr or pay fo a local bus to do the last 7 miles to Cairnryan
4. Do some deal with p&o and make rail sail tickets valid on their ferries (aka the Dover - France ticket) increasing choice and giving better options less wait for the ferry
5. With a bit of creative thinking: step off the train at Stranraer, use one or two of Boris' big bendy buses to drive straight on to the ferry (security & check in could be done at Stranraer) Most people could be encouraged to get a boarding pass off the internet in advance like Easyjet. Good customer experience v now!
6. There is still demand for ferry traffic to Ireland, e.g. Both buses Glasgow to Cairnryan for the 11.30 & 15.30 ferries this Friday are already full.
7. The railway is much better at handling peak traffic at Xmas of holiday period than buses
 

HSTEd

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There was apparently a military railway from the Stranraer Line to Cairnryan, and although the trackbed is really hard to see on Google Earth I wonder if it would be entirely unthinkable to lay some track down again....
 

harz99

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There was apparently a military railway from the Stranraer Line to Cairnryan, and although the trackbed is really hard to see on Google Earth I wonder if it would be entirely unthinkable to lay some track down again....

In a word, yes! The existing P&O port at Cairnryan covers part of the old trackbed, so even if millions were wasted rebuidling that far the railway could not reach the new Stena Lochryan port at the opposite end of the village.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I agree with a lot that has been said this is a lovely route and traffic should be encouraged.
1. The time table say every 2 hours with a regular pattern best for locals & ferry passengers
2. Current prices do not make sense. There must be some way to take the super Strathclyde day rider ticket which is valid to Barhill and sell an add on say £5 way some agreement to share sales. This is a political problem stopping people using the train from Barrhill to Stranraer.
3. Contine to allow the rail sail tickets to be valid to Stranraer, give people the choice ride on a bus on a dangerously narrow road from Ayr or pay fo a local bus to do the last 7 miles to Cairnryan
4. Do some deal with p&o and make rail sail tickets valid on their ferries (aka the Dover - France ticket) increasing choice and giving better options less wait for the ferry
5. With a bit of creative thinking: step off the train at Stranraer, use one or two of Boris' big bendy buses to drive straight on to the ferry (security & check in could be done at Stranraer) Most people could be encouraged to get a boarding pass off the internet in advance like Easyjet. Good customer experience v now!
6. There is still demand for ferry traffic to Ireland, e.g. Both buses Glasgow to Cairnryan for the 11.30 & 15.30 ferries this Friday are already full.
7. The railway is much better at handling peak traffic at Xmas of holiday period than buses

Some answers in the same order:

1. Cannot be done without additional resource costs, which are not available.
2. Said that already!
3. A dangerously narrow road! We are talking the main A77, a trunk road used safely by many vehicles of all types every day. Maybe a slow road and an uncomfortable ride due to the many twists and turns, but dangerously narrow - no.
4. Why would P&O or Stena wish to do that when they are both trying to maximise profits for their own route. Are you not aware that there was originally a proposal to expand the P&O port site and for both to share, which they both eventually dropped rather than share?
5. The small number of foot passengers would not justify such an operation. Remember that Stena is not really interested in foot traffic, motorists are where they make their money.
6. That's approximately 100 people, nearly all of whom would always have used the coach rather than train if the ferry still docked at Stranraer. I used to use the coach from Stranraer up to Ayr on occasion, sitting outside as the ferries disgorged the foot passengers revealed just how few went to the rail station - maybe 10 or so, a few more on certain football days (because of the ability to consume alcohol on the train, which you cannot on the coaches).
7. Wherever did you get that idea from! Coach companies can and do lay on additional coaches over peak holiday periods far more easily than rail operators.

Despite all the above, I do hope that commonsense will prevail and the various parties can either be persuaded to find more resources, or better still be proactive, and come up with a viable plan to make a go of this very scenic rail line.
 

Rhydgaled

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Stranraer needs what happened in Fishguard to happen there. Fishguard recieved a very limited service to connect with the ferry only, but since Fishguard & Goodwick station (closer to the population centre) opened the service on the line is much improved.
Actually, they put on extra trains to Fishguard Harbour first (Sept 2011), then everyone shouted why provide extra trains for Fishguard as there currently isn't a station in Fishguard for them to stop at, so they openned Fishguard & Goodwick (FGW - openned May 14th this year). FGW is actually in Goodwick not Fishguard but still better than the harbour station which is in neither.


Regardless of the site of the Stranraer station, the other issue is the timetable - providing a reliable clockface timetable from Stranraer/ Girvan to Ayr/Kilmarnock.
The extra trains put on for Fishguard aren't clockface. The existing daytime train out of Fishguard is 13:30, the extra trains are 06:53, 08:04 09:56, 19:00 and around 21:00. Trains coming in are 05:50 from Carmarthen, 06:40ish from Cardiff, 10:57 from Cardiff (the existing boat train), 16:04 from Cardiff and 20:05 from Clarbeston Road (connecting from the 17:39 from Cardiff).

how about a bus stop at current station and a bus connecting with trains, maybe an extention of current town service?
That's what they did at Fishguard when the extra trains were introduced. A long-distance bus is diverted to the harbour for the 08:04 train and a town service extended to meet 09:56 (there was already a town service bus to the harbour around lunch time to meet the ferry, which was tweaked slightly to connect better with the boat train when the extra trains were introduced). A bus was also put on to meet the 18:30ish arrival (16:04 from Cardiff), which I think is the town service vehicle returning to depot. That still leaves a few trains without bus connections, and alot of the pontential catchment area outside Fishguard doesn't have buses to meet trains.

3. A dangerously narrow road! We are talking the main A77, a trunk road used safely by many vehicles of all types every day. Maybe a slow road and an uncomfortable ride due to the many twists and turns, but dangerously narrow - no.
Trunk roads aren't necessarily very safe. The A487 between Aberystwyth and Cardigan is quite dangerous, I've been on buses diverted via very narrow country lanes a number of times because accidents have closed the A487. There's also a very dangorous connection between two bus services which involves crossing the road without assistance from zebra/pelican/etc. crossings in a 50mph zone.
 

tbtc

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2. Current prices do not make sense. There must be some way to take the super Strathclyde day rider ticket which is valid to Barhill and sell an add on say £5 way some agreement to share sales. This is a political problem stopping people using the train from Barrhill to Stranraer

The current ticket prices aren't that bad considering the distances involved (it sounds like a lot of money just to go a couple of stations along the line until you appreciate just how far apart the stations are).

Strathclyde area services have always been subsidised, which means that they make other Scottish services look expensive, but the Stranraer - Glasgow prices are broadly comparable with journeys of a similar length elsewhere in the country.

As for expecting ferry passengers to travel from Norn Iron to Cairnryan then onto a bus south to Stranraer, then on a train up to the central belt (doubling back on yourself), that means quite a time penalty and also another change (which will put people off).
 

Bruce Warren

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The time penalty for a double back via stranraer as opposed to a direct bus
to Ayr is 20 minutes according to Swestrans, so it's easy to see why the direct bus
might be more attractive to the passenger on the go. However for some
passengers a long bus journey might well prove less comfortable. It is, after all,
some 45 miles from Cairnryan to Ayr. Google reckon an hours drive. The bus
is allowed 80 minutes or so.

If a suitable Stranraer train were to run direct to Glasgow it would be the
same number of changes. Interestingly Stena have reputedly approached the
Scottish Parliament, (According to MSP Alex Fegusson asking a question in
Holyrood on March the 1st) stating that if Scotrail could organise a decent
connection (presumably just such a service) then they would reconsider
connecting at Stranraer as an alternative to bussing people to Ayr.
 

harz99

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Interestingly Stena have reputedly approached the
Scottish Parliament, (According to MSP Alex Fegusson asking a question in
Holyrood on March the 1st) stating that if Scotrail could organise a decent
connection (presumably just such a service) then they would reconsider
connecting at Stranraer as an alternative to bussing people to Ayr.

Of course Stena would reconsider - it would significantly reduce their costs!

It has to be said that all this should have been sorted out at the stage when plans were approved for the new port; I'm pretty sure there is provision in the planning laws to enable provision of a connecting bus service back to Sranraer station to have been a condition of approving the plans.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I do find talk of Scotrail/Transport Scotland organising "suitable" trains to enable viable connections between Ferry at Port Ryan and Train at Stranraer laughable.

People seem to forget that it is Stena that has been making it almost impossible to do rail sail, and I am not referring to the move to Port Ryan. Constant schedule changes by Stena with absolutely no consideration for rail passengers have been made for some three years before the move to my knowledge. We should all know that "the railway" cannot simply change timings at almost the drop of a hat, and several times a year as well.

Of course Stena are are a business and can do as they see fit, but lets not ignore their past actions. As an example, anyone who stays in the Stranraer area will know that in the last couple of years Stena made it almost impossible to undertake a sensibly timed non driving daytrip from Scotland to Belfast via their services. Moving the ferry departure (forward) that used to connect with the first train arriving at Stranraer, so that train pax could wave goodbye to the ship as it left was really helpful.
 
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bailey65

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Unfortunately in these difficult cost concious times there has to be a good business case to keep lines like stranraer open and that just moved several miles up the coast and no longer needs scotrail.
It would be a good idea to do a survey of people along the route to see if enough people would want to use the railway and go from there.
If all this is going to come to a head around 2014 time it could well be an independent scottish parliament that has to deal with the matter.
 

bailey65

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I hope the line survives it would be a retrograde step to close a line in this day and age, we need expansion and modernisation of the railways not contraction but unfortunately it all comes down to financial viability.
 
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Greenback

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It's debatable whether the ferries actually provided much of business case for keeping the line open in recent years.
 

HSTEd

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What would it cost to close all the signal boxes between Ayr and Stranraer and run it as single-train-working?
 

Bruce Warren

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It's due for ERTMS in 2018, so I imagine the signal boxes might be doomed in
any event.

As an aside, during the volvanic ash incident, they put extra carriages on the line. A friend of mine
has a photo of a six car unit at Stranraer. Not that it's likely but if the airlines were to experience
similar trouble again there would be a strategic case for keeping the line open.

I have no sympathies for Stena btw. They promised a faster crossing, then
ditched the HSS. The new bigger ferries may be faster than the traditional ones, but
the new timing is actually 15 minutes slower than what the HSS did on the longer
route.

As to business case, I have no idea, not being up with these things, but
there is one thing I find striking. Have a look at the passenger
numbers for Girvan. Girvan has 4000 less people yet even when Stranraer had
a ferry and Girvan did not, it had twice as many passengers and more trains
than Stranraer.

Admittedly it's much closer to Glasgow, but I've never understood why Stranraer
couldn't generate at least similar passengers on it's own if the service was
properly marketed- ie station location, pricing, car park, bus interchange etc.
and the town itself made more attractive.
 
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harz99

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What would it cost to close all the signal boxes between Ayr and Stranraer and run it as single-train-working?

Don't know but that would give a 3 hourly service. However would Girvan still need to be manned for the services that turn back to Ayr/Glasgow there?

First northbound would still need to be around 0700 from Stranraer to cater for the Ayr College students, returning from Ayr at 0830 ish is again not dissimilar to the current 0837 first southbound.

The other important journeys of 1731 & 2331 ex Ayr southbound would both fit in such a service, and obviously only one unit would be needed provided if it became acceptable that pax to/from Glasgow would always have to change at Ayr. Staff resources would still need to be used elsewhere for maximum efficiency.

So in simple terms it could be done; although obviously there are many other factors to consider. Whether such a proposal would save any significant costs or be desirable or not - who knows?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Admittedly it's (Girvan) much closer to Glasgow, but I've never understood why Stranraer
couldn't generate at least similar passengers on it's own if the service was
properly marketed- ie station location, pricing, car park, bus interchange etc.
and the town itself made more attractive.

Pardon my brackets above, just to avoid misunderstanding.

I would hazard a guess that Girvan is an attractive commuting proposition to both Ayr and Glasgow, both from cost and journey time. Stranraer simply isn't, with an extra hour each way, far fewer trains and much higher (non SPT) fares.
 
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