Arriva Trains Wales Query

[Michael.Y]

You can't integrate 3 LHCS sets into the timetables unless there are more than three sets available. Yes you could share a neutrally-branded spare set with Chiltern, but I doubt that is likely to happen (the ATW DVTs don't have generators do they?) Anyway, if you are dropping express and buffet facilities and reducing Holyhead - Cardiff to the 2-hourly stoppers, I would put the LHCS on Manchester - Swansea/Llandudno, not the Holyhead - Cardiff stoppers.

Well I think we all would tbh - a LHS between Manchester and Swansea would be ideal usage of the third set. Whether this transpires or not will be seen in December onwards.

 

[jones_bangor]

You can't integrate 3 LHCS sets into the timetables unless there are more than three sets available. Yes you could share a neutrally-branded spare set with Chiltern, but I doubt that is likely to happen (the ATW DVTs don't have generators do they?) Anyway, if you are dropping express and buffet facilities and reducing Holyhead - Cardiff to the 2-hourly stoppers, I would put the LHCS on Manchester - Swansea/Llandudno, not the Holyhead - Cardiff stoppers.

It doesn't add up at the moment, better to wait and see what happens.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The angle I'm coming from is the command paper and the expected savings without anyone really understanding where the savings are suppose to be.

The massive increase in services since privatisation has been in the off peak - where the non infrastructure spend expansion space was. Services here are not cost free or marginal as they still pay track access, increase staff numbers and importantly on non electrified lines consume diesel that gets ever more expensive.
Abergavenny to Cardiff is a good example 19 trains a day in 91/92 , 5 in peak. Now 29 and some non stop ones. Still only 5 in peak. Travel still predominantly happens in peak, thats where the numbers are to pay fares not the off peak. It needs more effort than running a 2 car unit back and forward on a clockface timetable providing the same constant capacity all day long.

 

[SIGGY56]

If mark3s can run with 67+DVT by default, then the current pair of mark3 resturant cars used on Gerald should be fine for new Gerald via Wrexham. So, if ATW gets any more first class vehicles it is likely to be just one (a resturant car).

Yep, sounds like three sets, and no need for a mark3 FO in any of them (unless the three first class ex-Cargo-D vehicles at Canton are resturant cars, or the new sets will have standard class buffets with a whole coach of first class, I doubt the first class ex-Cargo-D vehicles will be used in regular ATW passenger service). I expect one set spare and two in service, but if there's only going to be one WAG-ex what is the other serviceable set to be used for.

I hope ATW will have a strategic reserve of LHCS stock (either mark2s or additional mark3s), in addition to the three Gerald rakes, for dealing with heavy passenger numbers at various events across Wales.

Also, my previous question is still unanswered:

Sorry for the delay - Been investigating regarding the sidings at Cheltenham. On the official plans there IS a runround facility in the sidings. How often used, that's another question !!

 

[Pacerpilot]

Sorry for the delay - Been investigating regarding the sidings at Cheltenham. On the official plans there IS a runround facility in the sidings. How often used, that's another question !!

Those 'plans' are out of date in that case. The pointwork in the Alstone Sdg was plain-lined.

http://g.co/maps/mympy

 

[TDK]

FYI you can in fact run a loco round between Chester and Cdf at:

Chester
Wrexham
Shewsbury
Newport
Cardiff

However only Chester and Cardiff would be viable with Wrexham a close 2nd.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Those 'plans' are out of date in that case. The pointwork in the Alstone Sdg was plain-lined.

Why all these short-sighted cutbacks. As I've said, one reason I'm trying to find run-round facilities is to gain stock to make use of the Swansea District Line to try and ensure short-sighted cutbacks aren't made there. That said, there appears to be a third track, presumablly for looping freight, on the other side of the level crossing. Could a rake of coaches be parked there while the loco runs round?

FYI you can in fact run a loco round between Chester and Cdf at:
...
Cardiff

However only Chester and Cardiff would be viable with Wrexham a close 2nd.

Can you run a loco round at Cardiff if it has come from the west (eg. Carmarthen/Builth Road (the latter for Royal Welsh Show))? I'm only interested in Cheltenham having a loop because I assumed CDF was too busy for run-round (obviously not a problem coming into Cardiff from the east, as the train can run into Canton for run-round).

 

[Michael.Y]

Why all these short-sighted cutbacks. As I've said, one reason I'm trying to find run-round facilities is to gain stock to make use of the Swansea District Line to try and ensure short-sighted cutbacks aren't made there. That said, there appears to be a third track, presumablly for looping freight, on the other side of the level crossing. Could a rake of coaches be parked there while the loco runs round?

They're only short sighted when looked at from the perspective of someone with an unhealthy obsession with LHCS. Like I've said before; today's railway is largely MU / HST / Loco+DVT based. It's called progress, not short-sighted. Why bother with complicated runaround movements when you can simply reverse a train?

 

[Pacerpilot]

Can you run a loco round at Cardiff if it has come from the west (eg. Carmarthen/Builth Road (the latter for Royal Welsh Show))? I'm only interested in Cheltenham having a loop because I assumed CDF was too busy for run-round (obviously not a problem coming into Cardiff from the east, as the train can run into Canton for run-round).

They can use Pengam sidings to run round. When the 50s were used on the Fishguard/Royal Welsh in 2006, they were run round at Pengam upon arrival from the west to so that they could access Canton
Similarly, when the set left Canton for the morning Westbound departure, it ran round at Pengam before returning to P3/P4 to form the service.

 

[tbtc]

Why all these short-sighted cutbacks

You'll be complaining about the number of turntables next

 

[87015]

Those 'plans' are out of date in that case. The pointwork in the Alstone Sdg was plain-lined.

http://g.co/maps/mympy

Unless there has been a Network Change gone in (I've no idea) then it'll just be a "temporary" plain lining and if anyone did require it NR would have to put the points (or alternative facilities) back in.

 

[Rhydgaled]

They're only short sighted when looked at from the perspective of someone with an unhealthy obsession with LHCS. Like I've said before; today's railway is largely MU / HST / Loco+DVT based. It's called progress, not short-sighted. Why bother with complicated runaround movements when you can simply reverse a train?

I wouldn't be bothering with runround movements (only complicated because the necessary facilities are now so rare) if the DBSOs were in good nick, but several posters on here doubt they are. I'm trying to minimise the costs of getting the ATW mark2s into service ASAP, I doubt WAG will pay very much to get the stock into use given it is a stop-gap measure for at most 8 years. The DBSOs, which I think should really be on the mark2 rakes I propose, might push the costs up too much.

They can use Pengam sidings to run round. When the 50s were used on the Fishguard/Royal Welsh in 2006, they were run round at Pengam upon arrival from the west to so that they could access Canton
Similarly, when the set left Canton for the morning Westbound departure, it ran round at Pengam before returning to P3/P4 to form the service.

I don't know where the Pengam sidings are, but assuming they are just east of Cardiff Central station that sounds useful.

 

[Pacerpilot]

Yes mate, If you have a look on Google Earth/Maps, follow the line east and there are a set of sidings (3 roads) on the South side of the relief lines.

 

[Michael.Y]

I'm trying to minimise the costs of getting the ATW mark2s into service ASAP, I doubt WAG will pay very much to get the stock into use given it is a stop-gap measure for at most 8 years.

I know a way of minimising it even more - not bothering.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I know a way of minimising it even more - not bothering.

You know I'm bothering because of a lack of trains to safeguard the future of the SDL and regular use of class 150s where they are woefully inappropriate. If we don't get additional stock, we can't fix these issues, and if we could put the LHCS on the Manchesters you could reduce overcrowding too. Having some extra trains could provide important benifits, not bothering with the LHCS means Wales can't get extra trains until 2015 at the earliest.

 

[PHILIPE]

You know I'm bothering because of a lack of trains to safeguard the future of the SDL and regular use of class 150s where they are woefully inappropriate. If we don't get additional stock, we can't fix these issues, and if we could put the LHCS on the Manchesters you could reduce overcrowding too. Having some extra trains could provide important benifits, not bothering with the LHCS means Wales can't get extra trains until 2015 at the earliest.

You will want to go back to steam next. LHCS has had it's day whatever coaches mught be available.

 

[Gareth Marston]

How about some reasons then?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You will want to go back to steam next. LHCS has had it's day whatever coaches mught be available.

Elaborate please

 

[PHILIPE]

How about some reasons then?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Elaborate please

Rhydgales might have some good ideas re use of LHCS but it has been gradually phased out over the years and only used now in exceptional circumstances of shortage.

 

[TDK]

You know I'm bothering because of a lack of trains to safeguard the future of the SDL and regular use of class 150s where they are woefully inappropriate. If we don't get additional stock, we can't fix these issues, and if we could put the LHCS on the Manchesters you could reduce overcrowding too. Having some extra trains could provide important benifits, not bothering with the LHCS means Wales can't get extra trains until 2015 at the earliest.

Was that not the franchise agreement? If it was not for the Cambrian being included in the unit diagrams for the Birminghams 150's would be an ideal unit for the Chester to Brum as the maximum linespeed currently between Chester and New Street via Wrexham and Shrewsbury is 75mph. Is this interest in LHCS just from an enthusiasts point of view or from a business perspective?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Rhydgales might have some good ideas re use of LHCS but it has been gradually phased out over the years and only used now in exceptional circumstances of shortage.

ATW is short on regional express units, although perhaps not quite as short as I thought. I'm sure I read that 20 diagrams would be used on Cambrian - Birmingahm - Holyhead from May 14th. Now that you have stated it will only require one more than now (up to 16 rather than 20 from the current 15) it seems there is less of a problem.

I think Chiltern fitting power doors to their mark3s shows that some in the industry think there is still a place for LHCS though.

If it was not for the Cambrian being included in the unit diagrams for the Birminghams 150's would be an ideal unit for the Chester to Brum as the maximum linespeed currently between Chester and New Street via Wrexham and Shrewsbury is 75mph.

156s might be an ideal unit for that service, or pairs of 153s, provided they have a comfortable interior, but using 150s would be another case of putting them where they shouldn't be.

Is this interest in LHCS just from an enthusiasts point of view or from a business perspective?

Neither, it is from a trying to make rail travel a more attractive alternative to the car perspective. Class 150s shouldn't be used for regional express type services, like the Fishguard flyer they are diagramed for and the Holyhead - Cardiff and Manchester services they turn up on in lieu of 158s and 175s. The objective of bringing the Swansea District Line into regular use is also to try and make rail more attractive, although it isn't quite enough to beat the car as it is, but gaining a few extra trains over it might preserve the possibility that one day trains could beat the car from Carmarthen to Cardiff. Reducing the levels of overcrowding on a few ATW services, and providing extra services using long trains during events that generate large passenger flows, could also help attract modal shift, or at least help avoid putting passengers off rail travel.

In this regard, it does not matter whether the extra trains are LHCS or class 158s. In fact, additional class 158s makes more sense for Wales than LHCS except for the fact we can't get any more 158s, but mark2s (that ATW don't even need to lease, except for the DBSOs if they are needed) are available.

 

[SIGGY56]

Those 'plans' are out of date in that case. The pointwork in the Alstone Sdg was plain-lined.

http://g.co/maps/mympy

The NR plan (via Portal) I saw showing all connections off main lines dated September 2011 (UPDATED) must be out of date then !!. That's progress for you !. As we say in the company ........ World Class !! :-x

 

[Gareth Marston]

ATW is short on regional express units, although perhaps not quite as short as I thought. I'm sure I read that 20 diagrams would be used on Cambrian - Birmingahm - Holyhead from May 14th. Now that you have stated it will only require one more than now (up to 16 rather than 20 from the current 15) it seems there is less of a problem.

I think Chiltern fitting power doors to their mark3s shows that some in the industry think there is still a place for LHCS though.

156s might be an ideal unit for that service, or pairs of 153s, provided they have a comfortable interior, but using 150s would be another case of putting them where they shouldn't be.

Neither, it is from a trying to make rail travel a more attractive alternative to the car perspective. Class 150s shouldn't be used for regional express type services, like the Fishguard flyer they are diagramed for and the Holyhead - Cardiff and Manchester services they turn up on in lieu of 158s and 175s. The objective of bringing the Swansea District Line into regular use is also to try and make rail more attractive, although it isn't quite enough to beat the car as it is, but gaining a few extra trains over it might preserve the possibility that one day trains could beat the car from Carmarthen to Cardiff. Reducing the levels of overcrowding on a few ATW services, and providing extra services using long trains during events that generate large passenger flows, could also help attract modal shift, or at least help avoid putting passengers off rail travel.

In this regard, it does not matter whether the extra trains are LHCS or class 158s. In fact, additional class 158s makes more sense for Wales than LHCS except for the fact we can't get any more 158s, but mark2s (that ATW don't even need to lease, except for the DBSOs if they are needed) are available.

As you've said before there's NO alternative to adding more stock to franchise. Even if Scotrail release DMU's displaced by EGIP in 2015/2016 theirs no guarantee any would come to Wales as Northern, EMT on Liverpool- Norwich and FGW would all be interested in them. The next cascade after that is when the GWML is electrified and 165/166 replace DMU's in West Country in 2017/2018.

Other posters are missing this crucial point in their LHCS is old hat stance. No one is ordering DMU's either.

 

[Rhydgaled]

As you've said before there's NO alternative to adding more stock to franchise. Even if Scotrail release DMU's displaced by EGIP in 2015/2016 theirs no guarantee any would come to Wales as Northern, EMT on Liverpool- Norwich and FGW would all be interested in them.

Assuming they release 158s or 156s though (the sort of stock we need in Wales), that's the only cascade I can think of that could be of much help to Wales. Even if we do get some 158s out of it that will perhaps be too late for the Swansea District Line, Gowerton redouble happens in 2013. We wouldn't get enough extra DMUs to avoid leaving passengers on platforms during special events anyway, but if we do get 158s out of the EGIP cascade we might only need regular day-to-day mark2 diagrams from 2013 to 2016. A long rake of coaches (prefrabably two) is needed to put on extras for events. Perhaps it would be possible to plan maintenance of the mark3 sets so that all three can be used on event days (you could only run two out of the three sets normally, but both would be needed on their diagram so only one rake for event trains if you don't keep the mark2s on standby as well until more mark3s can replace them in 2018/2019).

As I said, I can only see the EGIP cascade being much use to Wales. 170/172/165/166 stock is not much use to us. As far as existing services go, they'd only be suitable for Wrexham Central - Bidston and Maesteg, Ebbw Vale, Swanline and Cardiff - Cheltenham, and hopefully they'll all get electrified anyway (Cheltenham's looking the least likely, we might see the others in south Wales done soon). Those units might also be appropriate for adding new medium-distance all stops services, eg. Llandudno - Chester, Llandudno - Holyhead and Cardiff - Abergavenny/Hereford/Shrewsbury to allow the longer distance trains on those routes to have a reduced calling pattern. What they will not do is solve many of the problems we have.

No one is ordering DMU's either.

And they shouldn't be. If anything, the only DMUs that should be ordered are regional express units, like a lightened 175 but with the ends of a 158 (corridor connections). Sadly the DfT think ordering Intercity DMUs is a good plan.:roll:

 

[tbtc]

If it was not for the Cambrian being included in the unit diagrams for the Birminghams 150's would be an ideal unit for the Chester to Brum as the maximum linespeed currently between Chester and New Street via Wrexham and Shrewsbury is 75mph

Maybe the Cambrian improvements will allow it to work independently of the Holyhead services - that would allow ATW to allocate their 158s to where they are needed bette.

By my reckoning there should be around fifty 158s released by EGIP, which should be enough for FSR to improve services (e.g. Glasgow - Dundee) and allocate enough to EMT/ Northern/ FGW/ ATW to allow some improvements there too. Say ten each - that would be a big help at each franchise (enough to make Cardiff - Portsmouth four coaches, enough to make Nottingham - Liverpool six coaches etc)

 

[sprinterguy]

Maybe the Cambrian improvements will allow it to work independently of the Holyhead services - that would allow ATW to allocate their 158s to where they are needed bette.

By my reckoning there should be around fifty 158s released by EGIP, which should be enough for FSR to improve services (e.g. Glasgow - Dundee) and allocate enough to EMT/ Northern/ FGW/ ATW to allow some improvements there too. Say ten each - that would be a big help at each franchise (enough to make Cardiff - Portsmouth four coaches, enough to make Nottingham - Liverpool six coaches etc)

I wouldn't be surprised if Scotrail only saw fit to release it's Haymarket allocated 158s following EGIP (23 units), retaining the North Highland, Inverness based fleet. That is, if Scotrail go down the route of releasing 158s. Perhaps that's just me being cynical, but we'll have to wait and see if it is justified.

Also, I don't think that the suitability of a train class to a route should be based solely on maximum line speed. From a passenger comfort point of view, the 158s are near enough perfect for Birmingham to Chester: The route has the sort of journey times (Because of the relatively slow line speed!) where modern conveniences like air conditioning are a definite plus. The 158s are a very good regional train, and Birmingham to Chester is a regional route.

 

[anthony263]

How many class 158's could possibly be released by scotrail anyway?

 

[sprinterguy]

How many class 158's could possibly be released by scotrail anyway?

As tbtc has outlined, following the completion of the full extent of the EGIP as it is currently approved then it is possible that enough units will be freed up to replace all of Scotrail's 158s (Including some reshuffling of stock, so that 156s return to the North Highland lines to replace Inverness' allocation of 158s, and potentially the introduction of Turbostars on the Glasgow & South Western). All speculative maths of course, and we will have to wait and see what the difference is between what is "possible" and what is "probable".

 

[anthony263]

Maybe the Cambrian improvements will allow it to work independently of the Holyhead services - that would allow ATW to allocate their 158s to where they are needed bette.

By my reckoning there should be around fifty 158s released by EGIP, which should be enough for FSR to improve services (e.g. Glasgow - Dundee) and allocate enough to EMT/ Northern/ FGW/ ATW to allow some improvements there too. Say ten each - that would be a big help at each franchise (enough to make Cardiff - Portsmouth four coaches, enough to make Nottingham - Liverpool six coaches etc)

Missed your post when I psoted earlier.

I certainly wouldnt mind seing FGW's class 158's working in pairs on the Cardiff - Portsmouth service which certainly could do with 4 carriage trains.

ATW could do with extra 158's to work the long distance services and perhaps say to introduce a express service over the Swansea district line which was proposed by another member on this forum as well as imporovements on the cambrian line.

 

[jones_bangor]

Other posters are missing this crucial point in their LHCS is old hat stance. No one is ordering DMU's either.

The only future for LHCS is clearly as DVT + Loco combinations, which have the benefits of units in that there's no messing about with run-arounds etc. Clearly a lot of mark 3 stock will come available in a few years' time with IEP etc. The Chiltern "Evergreen" project clearly offers a new lease of life for the stock, but my guess is a lot of perfectly good mark 3s will be exported or scrapped.

The mark 2s will all be scrap within 5 years, no point in spending a penny on them.

 

[merlodlliw]

Alas Mr Bunker perhaps should have thought twice before he bought them for ATW, his vision was good at the time, however HQ Directors were not amused.
Now whatever happened to Mr Bunker,anyone known where he is.



Bob