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The 'N' word - Nationalise

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LNW-GW Joint

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Presumably because all of the debts of Network Rail (£25,000,000,000) would then become treated as Government debt (which may affect credit ratings etc).
Immaterial, as it won't happen, but at the moment the "arms length" treatment of Network Rail means it doesn't count as Government debt (which is why Labour set it up as they did)

Plus the capital value of the rolling stock owned by ROSCOs, plus the value of NR's assets (the £25Bn is only their current "bank balance").
This includes stations, track, signalling etc.
Plus Eurostar/HS1/St Pancras etc (complex ownership/operation separate from NR).
Also if freight was included you would need to buy out DB Schenker, Freightliner and the rest.

Not looking very attractive now, is it.
But it's only taxpayers' money so why worry.

Perhaps people who want "nationalisation" really mean public "control" and "management" rather than ownership.
If so, the government already has virtually full control via DfT, NR and ORR.
So we're down to management, but that's another story, as they say.
 
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SWTCommuter

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Presumably because all of the debts of Network Rail (£25,000,000,000) would then become treated as Government debt (which may affect credit ratings etc).

Immaterial, as it won't happen, but at the moment the "arms length" treatment of Network Rail means it doesn't count as Government debt (which is why Labour set it up as they did)

Network Rail's debt is underwritten by the government, and the Public Accounts Select Committee regards it as a public sector company even though the Dft tries to pretend it is still in the private sector.

'It is unacceptable that Network Rail’s costs are still not subject to direct National Audit Office and Parliamentary scrutiny. The Department continues to view Network Rail as an "essentially private sector" company despite giving it over £3 billion a year in funding and underwriting its debt of over £25 billion. The Department could not offer any convincing evidence as to what characteristics Network Rail shares with a private company.'

http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...c-accounts-committee/news/dft-cost-reduction/

It is extremely unlikely that the ratings agencies don't already count Network Rail's debt as part of the national debt.
 

HSTEd

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It is extremely unlikely that the ratings agencies don't already count Network Rail's debt as part of the national debt.

Indeed, its just like PFIs supposedly reduce borrowing and thus improve the interest rates the country can obtain on capital markets......

They must assume that ratings agencies are collosal idiots since it is obvious this is just public debt by another name, since we commit to paying off the "interest" on it every year.
 

tbtc

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When most people talk about nationalisation I would think they are talking more about the ToC's and the services that operate. Not specifically Network Rail.

And if what you say is the worry, then why not leave Network Rail as it is, but nationalise the ToC's and set a new "British Rail" up in a similar style to Network Rail (pretty much government owned and funded - but technically not).
Or even merge them both into another "arms length" set up?

So you plan to buy up all of the trains?

The current price of stock is over £1,000,000 per carriage so you're not talking pocket money.

And you'd still be pouring money into the inefficient Network Rail despite not owning it
 

WelshBluebird

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So you plan to buy up all of the trains?

The current price of stock is over £1,000,000 per carriage so you're not talking pocket money.

And you'd still be pouring money into the inefficient Network Rail despite not owning it

Infact this is one of the huge problems I have with the current system.
Many of the trains we (the country / taxpayers / whatever) have already paid for because we paid for them to be built. Much of the stock we are paying for a second time round by having to pay the ROSCOs.
 

tbtc

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Infact this is one of the huge problems I have with the current system.
Many of the trains we (the country / taxpayers / whatever) have already paid for because we paid for them to be built. Much of the stock we are paying for a second time round by having to pay the ROSCOs.

...but surely the ROSCOs paid the Government for the assets at privatisation (they weren't just given away)
 

WelshBluebird

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...but surely the ROSCOs paid the Government for the assets at privatisation (they weren't just given away)

1 - Was the price paid the correct market value, or was it a cheaper deal just to get privatisation under way? (I don't know the answer to this as I was way too young).
2 - We have the issue of a one off payment v a longer term one. Whilst yes, the government received money for the stock, the government (and passengers) may well be paying more to the ROSCO's over the longer period since privatisation.

And even ignoring that, it just seems an incredibly system where stock that had already been paid for now has to be leased.
 

SWTCommuter

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...but surely the ROSCOs paid the Government for the assets at privatisation (they weren't just given away)

They were hastily sold off in early 1996 for £1.8Bn in the rush to complete privatisation before the election. The price was low because potential bidders feared that an incoming Labour government might re-nationalise them. Once it became clear that Labour wouldn't re-nationalise, they were sold on for £2.65Bn. The National Audit Office concluded that the taxpayer had lost out by about £700 million.
 

HSTEd

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Additionally there would be no need to nationalise the majority of the Sprinter, Pacer or HST fleets, so thats got to be a billion pounds cut off. (Might as well just replace them all with new build considering how short the remaining lifetime is).
 

Zoe

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Additionally there would be no need to nationalise the majority of the Sprinter, Pacer or HST fleets, so thats got to be a billion pounds cut off. (Might as well just replace them all with new build considering how short the remaining lifetime is).
It has been suggested though that HSTs could remain in service until 2035.
 

HSTEd

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It has been suggested though that HSTs could remain in service until 2035.

All of them? I'm pretty sure that was just a handful of sets (the ones in the best condition) on the Penzance and possibly Nottingham routes?
 

Zoe

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All of them? I'm pretty sure that was just a handful of sets (the ones in the best condition) on the Penzance and possibly Nottingham routes?
Only the London to Plymouth/Penzance route and possibly London to Nottingham as you say although in the case of Nottingham electrification may well remove them from service earlier. The fact is though that there will still be in HST fleet although much smaller than it is now.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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If EC cold freely run to Nottingham, offer a better product at a lower price and market that tomcustomers,mand if passengers were required to buy TOC specific tickets and excess if they changed their minds, things might change. At present there is meant to be competition but in effect there is little to none even where it is meant to exist. Only when the industry is freed from the straight jacket of franchises and allowed to operate where it wants and provide the service it believes passengers want (whilst unprofitable operations are protected and where appropriate subsidised) will true competition arrive in the rail industry.

Fine if you are only risking private money, but with virtually all services subsidised to a geater or lesser degree, you are asking the DfT to subsidise competing services to Nottingham with taxpayer's money at no risk.

EC could indeed run faster services to Nottingham via Grantham (and Sheffield via Retford) than EMT, but that would knock the legs from under the wider EMT service and damage Leicester/Derby services.
BR thought about doing this in the 70s but realised the MML as a whole would then be unviable.
The view was/is that if EC can justify more stock it should deploy it in its own back yard.
If you cherry pick routes you will damage the rest.
Currently, EC gets Leeds, but has to serve Lincoln as well.
EMT gets Leicester, but has to serve Matlock, etc.
That's why franchises work and free for all won't.

And what alternative route between Ealing Broadway and Bristol Parkway did you have in mind?

There is not "meant to be competition".
Franchises are inherently monopolistic (except at renewal).
Any local choice at the edges is purely coincidental.
 

YorkshireBear

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Add in i dont think there is enough capacity on the ECML to support nottingham sheffield and every other town on the east of the pennines services to london.
If the MML is electrified and along with the ongoing speed improvements i think the MML will be perfectly sufficient.
 
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