East Cost Franchise Retender

[Clip]

To be fair to Paul, he did make the point about capacity over Welwyn if the fastest services were slowed down (allowing more trains to be squeezed onto the ECML).

Given the freight on the ECML and the slower passenger services (e.g. the EMT service every hour from Peterborough to Grantham) there may be scope for a better timetable if we slowed the fastest trains down a little (110mph is still very fast, esp when compared to the A1).

Just trying to be Devil's Advocate.

Slow them down and see a rise in business travel on the airlines. Or moving over to EMT as already said.

 

[tbtc]

Slow them down and see a rise in business travel on the airlines. Or moving over to EMT as already said.

How many flights a day from Yorkshire to London?

And how many EMT services are directly competing with East Coast ones for passengers? (there are a handful of Leeds - Leicester - London services a day, taking about an hour longer)

Slowing down from 125 to 110 would only cost a handful of minutes on an Aberdeen - London service, but it may allow for an extra path or two each hour.

(again, just being Devil's Advocate)

 

[Clip]

How many flights a day from Yorkshire to London?

And how many EMT services are directly competing with East Coast ones for passengers? (there are a handful of Leeds - Leicester - London services a day, taking about an hour longer)

Slowing down from 125 to 110 would only cost a handful of minutes on an Aberdeen - London service, but it may allow for an extra path or two each hour.

(again, just being Devil's Advocate)

I have no idea. All it would take is flybe to decide one in the morning to one at night monday to friday for it to work. The reason they may not do now(I dont know if they do) is because of the luxury and timings of the train service provided by EC.

By slowing everything down just because of the want of fancy new trains(which are awful by the way) and to get more paths through the viaduct would see the need for a whole recast of just about every other TOC in the country due to conflict of movements further up the line and then those that go on from sharing the ECML to other lines accross the country..
Then someone can answer the question i posed to what would happen with set swaps that would envairably have to happen - you want to sit on a 377 to newcastle/edinburgh for an extended amount of time? Even if the seating was rearranged for it to be more comfortable how many seats would you lose because of this and the addition of extra luggae racks - because we all know people use EC with lots and lots of luggage. I could carry on thinking up many many reasons but the sheer thought of slowing down trains when we are meant to be speeding them up just beggars belief.

Then you have to ask yourself - would it be worth it?




No would be the answer
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In fact can anyone work out how much time would be lost by restricting it to 110MPH?

 

[Waverley125]

Fantasy rail alert!

8tph from KX plus all the FCC services? That will kill journey times, as everything will have to queue to cross the Welwyn viaduct.

Also, how long are you looking at for turn around time at Kings Cross? With only 9 mainline platforms, space will be at a premium.

It's not fantasy, it's the needed level of service for lots of place-particuarly Middlesbrough & Hull-the bare minimum.

Yes, this would require work-I think a 20 year Franchise should be prepared to include a second Welwyn Viaduct and quadrupling where possible in their plans.

Let's not forget that lots of the paths for this are already there-the hourly Lincoln service is an extension of the current FCC 'fast' to peterborough, the hourly Aberdeen service (which only goes to Leeds, so is definitely pathable) takes over XC north of Newcastle and provides the hourly long-form Edinburgh-Aberdeen express the east coast needs.

The 2-hourly Lincoln service via Newark is certainly viable when you include stops in the south. Also, given the movement of many FCC services onto Thameslink in the next few years, more platform space at LKX will be freed up.

This isn't crazy, this is what we should be aiming for-if not more. Currently ICWC fits 8 departures every hour from Euston, with more to come in extra trains to Liverpool, and 'semi fasts' to Crewe. That should be possible on the east coast.

In an ideal world I'd like to see Lincoln (via Newark), Middlesbrough, Hull & Cleethorpes all get hourly services through to LKX, plus extending of the current FCC peterborough 'semi fasts' to Lincoln via Spalding, & Doncaster (as per the LM model to Crewe).

 

[Zoe]

I think a 20 year Franchise should be prepared to include a second Welwyn Viaduct and quadrupling where possible in their plans.

The franchise is limited to 15 years due to EU regulations and this can only be extended by 50 percent if the operator "provides assets which are both significant in relation to the overall assets needed to carry out the passenger transport services covered by the public service contract and linked predominantly to the passenger transport services covered by the contract." I'm not sure you'd get a company that would be prepared to pay for expensive pquadrupling at Welwyn even in return for a 21 year franchise.

 

[Deerfold]

The franchise is limited to 15 years due to EU regulations and this can only be extended by 50 percent if the operator "provides assets which are both significant in relation to the overall assets needed to carry out the passenger transport services covered by the public service contract and linked predominantly to the passenger transport services covered by the contract." I'm not sure you'd get a company that would be prepared to pay for extensive quadrupling at Welwyn even in return for a 21 year franchise.

And the government will argue that improved services to the North are coming via HS2 (eventually. Probably.)

 

[Clip]

It's not fantasy, it's the needed level of service for lots of place-particuarly Middlesbrough & Hull-the bare minimum.

In an ideal world I'd like to see Lincoln (via Newark), Middlesbrough, Hull & Cleethorpes all get hourly services through to LKX, plus extending of the current FCC peterborough 'semi fasts' to Lincoln via Spalding, & Doncaster (as per the LM model to Crewe).

It is though isnt it. How on earth do you know that there are that many people who would use an hourly service from the likes of Boro and Cleethorpes? And if Hull was so desparatley needed the why have FHT asked for more paths? Because they couldnt fill the trains maybe?

 

[Deerfold]

The 2-hourly Lincoln service via Newark is certainly viable when you include stops in the south. Also, given the movement of many FCC services onto Thameslink in the next few years, more platform space at LKX will be freed up.

I'm guessing you mean KGX?

Much of what you put may be desirable (apart from the slower trains). But the likelyhood of it happening anytime soon is close to zero. The number of times there's been talk of widening Welwyn and it hasn't happened suggests that at a time when it's officially been abandoned for the near future it's unlikely to happen.

The only times a franchise has been in charge of organising the improvements has been where they're the sole users of the line.

I can't see anyone wanting to take on potential compensation payments to various other operators.

 

[jon0844]

The recent (2-3 years ago) timetable changes has helped with the pinch point at Welwyn North. Many more semi-fast trains now terminate at WGC in the peaks to allow faster trains through. These semi-fast trains then slot in pretty well with the all-station services, usually only getting caught up just beyond Potters Bar (northbound) if at all.

When trains go over to the TL side and things go pear shaped, this pretty well worked out system is surely going to go tits up very quickly. This might be a good incentive to seek a solution to the viaduct/tunnel issue once and for all, even if it means building a diversion for the fast trains somehow that joins back up later on.

 

[fhs man 2]

Who were the bidders the last time ?

 

[Zoe]

Who were the bidders the last time ?

Arriva
First
National Express
Virgin/Stagecoach/GNER

 

[island]

If anything the DfT actively discourages competition. Reading and Ipswich are 2 places that had competition on London services which was removed as part of franchise remapping. Competition can only benefit the passenger and the DfT is interested in what it can get in terms of premium payments.

Reading still has competition (FGW/SWT).

 

[junglejames]

My bid for the East Coast would be: leeds services to be formed of 110 mph class 377s of 8 to 12 car length with portions splitting at Leeds for hourly for Bradford FS and 3 to 4 times per day to Skipton. Catering limited to trolley.
Hull, Lincoln and Harrogate services provided by dragged EMUs. Hull to get hourly EMU portion after TP electrification complete
1 TPH (mk 4) Kings Cross to Berwick upon Tweed calling at most stations north of Doncaster.
1 TPH (mk 4) Kings Cross to Edinburgh calling at Stevenage, York, Newcastle, Berwick.
Services to beyond Edinburgh Dropped.
All EC services to call at Stevenage, line speed to be reduced to 110 south of Hitchin to improve capacity.

Do you work for Alex Salmond? Scrap the through trains, then kill off the rest of that nasty English franchise?!!!

 

[Aictos]

The only changes since we're talking fantasy and what I think is very much possible is to extend all Newark Northgate Terminators to York and rejig the Lincoln service to extend it to Cleethorpes via Lincoln as well as allow First Hull Trains & Grand Central to pick up northbound and set down southbound at Peterborough for selected services but only once the additional platforms are open to the public.

Other then that, nothing will change which I think is a more realistic approach

 

[Wath Yard]

Reading still has competition (FGW/SWT).

It doesn't. I have no idea if an SWT only ticket either exists or if it does is cheaper but a service taking 90 minutes isn't competition for one taking 30 minutes, unless you are that bloke who runs the money saving expert website.

 

[Lampshade]

It doesn't. I have no idea if an SWT only ticket either exists or if it does is cheaper but a service taking 90 minutes isn't competition for one taking 30 minutes, unless you are that bloke who runs the money saving expert website.

It has Route Staines tickets, which are by definition SWT-only tickets.

I would gladly do Reading - London on a 458 over a HST

 

[tbtc]

It doesn't. I have no idea if an SWT only ticket either exists or if it does is cheaper but a service taking 90 minutes isn't competition for one taking 30 minutes, unless you are that bloke who runs the money saving expert website.

...yet people claim that LM running Liverpool Lime Street - London Euston will provide "competition" for Virgin?

The whole "competition" argument is a red herring though - TOCs compete when they bid for franchises

 

[island]

It doesn't. I have no idea if an SWT only ticket either exists or if it does is cheaper but a service taking 90 minutes isn't competition for one taking 30 minutes, unless you are that bloke who runs the money saving expert website.

It's not 90 minutes and is cheaper on most fares route VIA STAINES.

 

[OxtedL]

It's not 90 minutes and is cheaper on most fares route VIA STAINES.

Waterloo to and from Reading is very much around the 90 minute mark on the majority of services.

 

[gswindale]

It's not 90 minutes and is cheaper on most fares route VIA STAINES.

True - most services are 82 minutes from Waterloo to Reading and vice-versa.

However 90 minutes is a more understandable journey time to everyday folk and also gives a more comprehendable idea as to how much longer the journey takes (3x v 2.666666666x)

 

[Bridge189]

My bid for the East Coast would be: leeds services to be formed of 110 mph class 377s of 8 to 12 car length with portions splitting at Leeds for hourly for Bradford FS and 3 to 4 times per day to Skipton. Catering limited to trolley.
Hull, Lincoln and Harrogate services provided by dragged EMUs. Hull to get hourly EMU portion after TP electrification complete
1 TPH (mk 4) Kings Cross to Berwick upon Tweed calling at most stations north of Doncaster.
1 TPH (mk 4) Kings Cross to Edinburgh calling at Stevenage, York, Newcastle, Berwick.
Services to beyond Edinburgh Dropped.
All EC services to call at Stevenage, line speed to be reduced to 110 south of Hitchin to improve capacity.

That has got to be the biggest pile of gash I have ever read on this forum. You clearly have no understanding of the ECML as a service/business at all. Slower line speed, loads of stops, regional units and catering limited to a trolley?? No regard for catering crews jobs then. Complete craziness.

Something like that comes to light and the airlines rub their hands and someone has already said.

 

[fhs man 2]

I hope the new franchise will continue to provide the quality this franchise is delivering.

 

[p123]

I've noticed a lot of people have commented positively on East Coast's (or 'Directly Operated Railways') offerings over the last franchise...

Dare I ask the question... did this work out really well? Did having a government owned inter-city franchise work out well for everyone?

And should other franchises maybe be 'directly operated'?

 

[Yew]

Not to mention 3tp2h to Lincoln shortly after EC decided it wasn't worth running 1tp2h.

They didnt want to run HST's to lincoln, and didnt want any 180's. Im not sure if I would prefer a change at nottingham to a MK4 or a DMU all the way to london though :/

 

[fhs man 2]

I've noticed a lot of people have commented positively on East Coast's (or 'Directly Operated Railways') offerings over the last franchise...

Dare I ask the question... did this work out really well? Did having a government owned inter-city franchise work out well for everyone?

And should other franchises maybe be 'directly operated'?

A thing I like about franchising is that thing change which I think makes everything more interesting.

With the right franchise owner it can work out really well for example GNER.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Didn't GNER end up in quite bad financial waters?

 

[fhs man 2]

Didn't GNER end up in quite bad financial waters?

The parent company went under not GNER.

 

[starrymarkb]

On the airline forums there is debate as to whether Virgin (Atlantic) will start London-Scotland services with the LHR slots freed up by the BA takeover of BMI.
If they did (I'm sure they won't) it could give Virgin Trains a problem with WC or EC bids.
DfT wants strong competition at the franchise bid stage but isn't interested below that.

They won't. I'm pretty sure Virgin are not allowed to bid as they are not using all the slots they already own (and lease a few out profitably to US airlines - something the authorities don't want to happen with the slots from BMI). If Virgin's slot count was maxed out then they might have a point about BA/BMI. (Plus Virgin tend to duplicate long standing BA routes rather then trying to find a niche to new destinations)

 

[paul1609]

The parent company went under not GNER.

True, but one of the reasons that the parent company went under was the poor performance of GNER. If it had been anywhere near profitable somebody would have snapped it up.
The trouble with the East Coast franchise is that its saddled by the franchise specification by running far to many hideously loss making services.
For some reason tocs seem to be willing to over bid for what is in reality now very much a secondary route for income and it enviably ends in default.

 

[HSTEd]

How much longer would trains take if they diverted via the Hertford Loop?

You could get some more trains by doing that on the all stoppers to Newark.