East Cost Franchise Retender

[Lampshade]

Why? First have shown they are quite good at running an intercity TOC.

Yes but when you look at what they've done with the fares on TPE since they took over...

 

[Blindtraveler]

for me, not first. Im angry with them at mo anyway after there decisions on Scotland East bus opperation. VT Would be my choice

 

[DarloRich]

My bid for the East Coast would be: leeds services to be formed of 110 mph class 377s of 8 to 12 car length with portions splitting at Leeds for hourly for Bradford FS and 3 to 4 times per day to Skipton. Catering limited to trolley.
Hull, Lincoln and Harrogate services provided by dragged EMUs. Hull to get hourly EMU portion after TP electrification complete
1 TPH (mk 4) Kings Cross to Berwick upon Tweed calling at most stations north of Doncaster.
1 TPH (mk 4) Kings Cross to Edinburgh calling at Stevenage, York, Newcastle, Berwick.
Services to beyond Edinburgh Dropped.
All EC services to call at Stevenage, line speed to be reduced to 110 south of Hitchin to improve capacity.

Is this a joke? It must be!

So you want to downgrade one of the most succesful sections (Kings Cross - Leeds) of the East Coast route to a vastly inferior service!!!!!!!!! Yes that should help keep up passenger numbers.

You want to make the rest of the route much slower and have a much reduced service. Again - that should help keep the passengers numebrs up

Why not have a look at this:

http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/Document...Timetable 10 December 2011 - 24 June 2012.pdf

becuase you seem to have missed out an awful lot of services

 

[Deerfold]

My bid for the East Coast would be: leeds services to be formed of 110 mph class 377s of 8 to 12 car length with portions splitting at Leeds for hourly for Bradford FS and 3 to 4 times per day to Skipton. Catering limited to trolley.
Hull, Lincoln and Harrogate services provided by dragged EMUs. Hull to get hourly EMU portion after TP electrification complete
1 TPH (mk 4) Kings Cross to Berwick upon Tweed calling at most stations north of Doncaster.
1 TPH (mk 4) Kings Cross to Edinburgh calling at Stevenage, York, Newcastle, Berwick.
Services to beyond Edinburgh Dropped.
All EC services to call at Stevenage, line speed to be reduced to 110 south of Hitchin to improve capacity.

Hmm, have you seen how light the loadings are on the current Bradford - London service between Bradford FS and Shipley?

I think even the local service betwen Bradford and Leeds is about the quietest within West Yorkshire.

I'd gain from these trains, but I'm sceptical about them being the best use of resources.

Where do the locsos wait for the EMU services to arrive at Leeds? I can see there being a long delay whilst that gets into position and is joined on.

And there's nothing quite like going through Stevengage at speed

Who would you suggest take over the dropped services?

 

[Blindtraveler]

this is clearly an XC Employee downgrading til its as cheep n nasty as possible. As for north of EDB Imsure megabus, nat X and Easyjet wil enjoy taking all the pax Scotrail cant cram on to there already inappropriate 170s.

 

[fhs man 2]

this is clearly an XC Employee downgrading til its as cheep n nasty as possible. As for north of EDB Imsure megabus, nat X and Easyjet wil enjoy taking all the pax Scotrail cant cram on to there already inappropriate 170s.

There is currently no regular buses which operate between Edinburgh and Aberdeen.

 

[Blindtraveler]

oh but there would be if the demand was there and yes Im aware of that, living as I do in Edinburgh

 

[fhs man 2]

oh but there would be if the demand was there and yes Im aware of that, living as I do in Edinburgh

There is demand for a hourly service from Aberdeen to Glasgow so I think and Aberdeen - Edinburgh service would be viable if it stopped in Fife that would be a bonus.

 

[Blindtraveler]

agreed but it would seam a connecting service is good enough at present.

 

[Waverley125]

so given we're doing 'bids for EC', here's mine

-Upgrade ECML to 4 lines over Holme fen, wire the south Hambleton chord & out to Hull via both Goole & Selby, wiring to Middlesbrough, look into wiring Newark-Lincoln and Doncaster-Cleethorpes

1tph London-Leeds: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham/Newark, Retford (every other hour), Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds

1tp2h London-Bradford Forster Square: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham/Newark, Retford (every other hour), Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds, Shipley

1tp2h London-Skipton: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham/Newark, Retford (every other hour), Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds, Keighley

1tph London-Harrogate: Peterborough, Doncaster, Leeds, Horsforth, Harrogate

1tph London-Newcastle: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham/Newark, Retford (every other hour), Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham

1tph London-Edinburgh: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham/Newark, Retford (Every other hour), Doncaster, York, Northallerton (every other hour), Darlington, Durham (every other hour), Newcastle, Morpeth/Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar

1tp2h London-Aberdeen: York, Darlington, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Haymarket, Kirkcaldy, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose

1tp2h London-Hull: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster, Thorne North, Goole, Brough

1tp2h London-Cleethorpes: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster, Thorne South, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Grimsby Town, Cleethorpes

1tp2h London-Middlesbrough: Stevenage/Peterborough, Grantham, Newark/Retford, Doncaster, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm, Thornaby

1tp2h London-Sunderland: Stevenage/Peterborough, Grantham, Newark/Retford, Doncaster, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm, Stockton on Tees, Hartlepool

1tph London-Lincoln: Finsbury Park, Welwyn Garden City, Stevenage, Hitchin, St Neots, Huntingdon, Peterborough, Spalding, Sleaford, Ruskington

1tp2h London-Lincoln: Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Lincoln

1tph Leeds-Aberdeen: York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Edinburgh, Haymarket, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose, Stonehaven

 

[Deerfold]

Much as I'd like more trains I'd be very surprised if there were any significant changes to the EC timetable in the near future.

Note the kerfuffle over the relatively minor changes described as the biggest in a generation known as Eureka (and the complications for so many other lines to make them work).

 

[Wath Yard]

I've seen some wishful thinking but that must take some kind of prize. 3 trains every 2 hours to Aberdeen and hourly to Cleethorpes or Hull!

How would this be resourced? Close down the GWML and nick all their HSTs?

 

[Deerfold]

I've seen some wishful thinking but that must take some kind of prize. 3 trains every 2 hours to Aberdeen and hourly to Cleethorpes or Hull!

How would this be resourced? Close down the GWML and nick all their HSTs?

Not to mention 3tp2h to Lincoln shortly after EC decided it wasn't worth running 1tp2h.

 

[electra27000]

so given we're doing 'bids for EC', here's mine

-Upgrade ECML to 4 lines over Holme fen, wire the south Hambleton chord & out to Hull via both Goole & Selby, wiring to Middlesbrough, look into wiring Newark-Lincoln and Doncaster-Cleethorpes

That's all very well and good, but aren't you forgetting the premium payments you promised us in your bid?

 

[Clip]

My bid for the East Coast would be: leeds services to be formed of 110 mph class 377s of 8 to 12 car length with portions splitting at Leeds for hourly for Bradford FS and 3 to 4 times per day to Skipton. Catering limited to trolley.
.

I cannot fathom how you have ever thought this would be a good idea using these units? At all.

 

[paul1609]

Hmm, have you seen how light the loadings are on the current Bradford - London service between Bradford FS and Shipley?

I think even the local service betwen Bradford and Leeds is about the quietest within West Yorkshire.

I'd gain from these trains, but I'm sceptical about them being the best use of resources.

Where do the locsos wait for the EMU services to arrive at Leeds? I can see there being a long delay whilst that gets into position and is joined on.

And there's nothing quite like going through Stevengage at speed

Who would you suggest take over the dropped services?

I would think that the best place to attach/ detach diesels on both the hull and harrogate services would be Doncaster, the Harrogate service could then proceed via S and W Hambledon junctions calling at Garforth if required. it would save the reversal at Leeds.
Whilst its fun going through Stevanage at speed you nearly always in my experience have to then brake for the stopping service on welwyn viaduct. There has been a crying need first identified by GNER for a M25 parkway station.
The Scottish services would presumably become the responsibility of the Scottish Government there would seem to be several options for them




--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I cannot fathom how you have ever thought this would be a good idea using these units? At all.

In single (ac) current service they are one of the most reliable units.
With suitable seating and layout they are suitable for journeys up to 3 hours.
They are the only units that have a proven track record with GPS SDO allowing the 12 car trains to call at short platformed stations.
The 1/3 - 2/3 door openings are more suitable that the current inter city stock for this route- station dwell times would be considerably reduced
They are the only EMUs that have a proven record of portion working- desires are rubbish at it.
They are british produced.

 

[Clip]

In single (ac) current service they are one of the most reliable units.
With suitable seating and layout they are suitable for journeys up to 3 hours.
They are the only units that have a proven track record with GPS SDO allowing the 12 car trains to call at short platformed stations.
The 1/3 - 2/3 door openings are more suitable that the current inter city stock for this route- station dwell times would be considerably reduced
They are the only EMUs that have a proven record of portion working- desires are rubbish at it.
They are british produced.

So you're purchasing stock for purchasing sake? So tell me then what happens when its decided by control to do some set swaps and units for Leeds inevitably get kicked onto an Edinburgh service? Are you saying thats going to be acceptable for people to travel at 110MPH all the way to edinburgh on vastly inferior stock to what is used now?

Or are you saying that no set swaps will be allowed so services will have to be cancelled and incur the costs that cancelling a train costs?

There is nothing wrong with the stock that plys the East Mainline and I should it will last for at least another 10 years or so with the right maintenence regime in place.

Id start flying if I ever had to go on a 377 anywhere. Or at least use EMT.

 

[IanXC]

Id start flying if I ever had to go on a 377 anywhere. Or at least use EMT.

I think EMT would be rubbing their hands with glee! I'm sure they could rework their services to gain quite a lot of revenue in this situation!

 

[Clip]

I think EMT would be rubbing their hands with glee! I'm sure they could rework their services to gain quite a lot of revenue in this situation!

Yeah they would porbably hire in LHCS too

 

[IanXC]

Yeah they would porbably hire in LCHS too

Or lease the mk4s given up by EC and maybe some Vossloh (sp?) diesels!

 

[Clip]

Or lease the mk4s given up by EC and maybe some Vossloh (sp?) diesels!

Yep. In fact I could see them going the whole hog at peak times and making some sort of 'Premier Service' Like Chiltern have done and practically killing the service EC would provide with their inferior stock.

In fact Id change company to them just to see them push it through and suceed

 

[DarloRich]

@paul1609 - are you serious? Have you ever traveled on the ecml? I am a regular user of ec and if your crazy plans ever cone to fruition i will join clip on the plane or on EMT

This plan would reduce one of the premier routes to nothing short of a joke

 

[jon0844]

For all of their faults, I doubt even Bombardier would agree to build a new fleet of 377s (well, they don't make them anymore - so their replacement) for such use!

Even with a totally different interior, they don't sound like the right sort of train and why 110mph? Surely you'd make it 125 minimum, with the ability to run at 140mph or more if the line is to get in-cab signalling in the future (when the trains would still be in use).

 

[Kneedown]

Apologies if this has been mentioned earlier and i missed it, but before East Coast goes out to tender again, wont a final decision be made regarding the future rail franchise map, especially as East Coast has been mentioned for possible merges with other franchises?

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/rvfm-jacobs-franchising-march2011.pdf

 

[paul1609]

So you're purchasing stock for purchasing sake? So tell me then what happens when its decided by control to do some set swaps and units for Leeds inevitably get kicked onto an Edinburgh service? Are you saying thats going to be acceptable for people to travel at 110MPH all the way to edinburgh on vastly inferior stock to what is used now?

Or are you saying that no set swaps will be allowed so services will have to be cancelled and incur the costs that cancelling a train costs?

There is nothing wrong with the stock that plys the East Mainline and I should it will last for at least another 10 years or so with the right maintenence regime in place.

Id start flying if I ever had to go on a 377 anywhere. Or at least use EMT.

Personally I think the 377s would allow better diagramming of the 91s + mk 4 sets on the London to Scotland Route.
it would be interesting to see a modern 110 mph EMU in trials on the East Coast i think that even on a London to Edinburgh runs it would show its tail lights to a 91 and mk 4, the HSTs wouldn't even see the tail lights.

 

[DarloRich]

Personally I think the 377s would allow better diagramming of the 91s + mk 4 sets on the London to Scotland Route.
it would be interesting to see a modern 110 mph EMU in trials on the East Coast i think that even on a London to Edinburgh runs it would show its tail lights to a 91 and mk 4, the HSTs wouldn't even see the tail lights.

Why on earth would you downgrade a 125mph route to 110 mph? What possible benefit i there in doung this? Please explain becuase it has me beaten

 

[Clip]

Personally I think the 377s would allow better diagramming of the 91s + mk 4 sets on the London to Scotland Route.
it would be interesting to see a modern 110 mph EMU in trials on the East Coast i think that even on a London to Edinburgh runs it would show its tail lights to a 91 and mk 4, the HSTs wouldn't even see the tail lights.

*Shakes head and walks away to the music that was always on at the end of the hulk*

 

[tbtc]

Why on earth would you downgrade a 125mph route to 110 mph? What possible benefit i there in doung this? Please explain becuase it has me beaten

To be fair to Paul, he did make the point about capacity over Welwyn if the fastest services were slowed down (allowing more trains to be squeezed onto the ECML).

Given the freight on the ECML and the slower passenger services (e.g. the EMT service every hour from Peterborough to Grantham) there may be scope for a better timetable if we slowed the fastest trains down a little (110mph is still very fast, esp when compared to the A1).

Just trying to be Devil's Advocate.

 

[Donny Dave]

so given we're doing 'bids for EC', here's mine

-Upgrade ECML to 4 lines over Holme fen, wire the south Hambleton chord & out to Hull via both Goole & Selby, wiring to Middlesbrough, look into wiring Newark-Lincoln and Doncaster-Cleethorpes

1tph London-Leeds: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham/Newark, Retford (every other hour), Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds

1tp2h London-Bradford Forster Square: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham/Newark, Retford (every other hour), Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds, Shipley

1tp2h London-Skipton: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham/Newark, Retford (every other hour), Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds, Keighley

1tph London-Harrogate: Peterborough, Doncaster, Leeds, Horsforth, Harrogate

1tph London-Newcastle: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham/Newark, Retford (every other hour), Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham

1tph London-Edinburgh: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham/Newark, Retford (Every other hour), Doncaster, York, Northallerton (every other hour), Darlington, Durham (every other hour), Newcastle, Morpeth/Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar

1tp2h London-Aberdeen: York, Darlington, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Haymarket, Kirkcaldy, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose

1tp2h London-Hull: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster, Thorne North, Goole, Brough

1tp2h London-Cleethorpes: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster, Thorne South, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Grimsby Town, Cleethorpes

1tp2h London-Middlesbrough: Stevenage/Peterborough, Grantham, Newark/Retford, Doncaster, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm, Thornaby

1tp2h London-Sunderland: Stevenage/Peterborough, Grantham, Newark/Retford, Doncaster, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm, Stockton on Tees, Hartlepool

1tph London-Lincoln: Finsbury Park, Welwyn Garden City, Stevenage, Hitchin, St Neots, Huntingdon, Peterborough, Spalding, Sleaford, Ruskington

1tp2h London-Lincoln: Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Lincoln

1tph Leeds-Aberdeen: York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Edinburgh, Haymarket, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose, Stonehaven

Fantasy rail alert!

8tph from KX plus all the FCC services? That will kill journey times, as everything will have to queue to cross the Welwyn viaduct.

Also, how long are you looking at for turn around time at Kings Cross? With only 9 mainline platforms, space will be at a premium.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The issue is more in relation to the overlap between East Coast and CrossCountry where competition by other modes is not provided. Notably the OFT would have required Virgin to some undertakings had they won the East Coast franchise in 2005 because they would have a near, or total, monopoly on some flows.

The OFT views are complete tosh.
DfT decides the franchise map, and the service structure, and that gives partial/total monopoly of the various services and routes.
Shared routes are part of the network connectivity, and competition is only secondary/incidental.
In any case most fares are interavailable.

Virgin used to run WC and XC, with shared services north of Stafford much like would have happened on EC north of Doncaster had they won that franchise.
What's the problem?
Virgin currently has a monopoly of services between Crewe, Warrington and Wigan.
Is anybody complaining about that, any more than, say, GW between Reading and Swindon?
Why should York-Newcastle be any different if the XC and EC operators have the same owner?

Today, there could be increased competition between Edinburgh and London, if VT deployed its trains on fast, direct services like EC.
They don't because DfT has decreed they are deployed on other services.
Franchises are inherently non-competitive (except at the time of bidding).