North Wales Questions

[Gareth Marston]

Trains arrive Aberystwyth xx:25, leaving at xx:30
Cambrian trains arrive Shrewsbury from Cambrian at xx:25, and head west from Shrewsbury at xx:27. That's only 2 minutes (7 with 5mins padding) turnround. The Birmingham - Holyheads leave Shrewsbury for Birmingham at xx:31 and get back at xx:19.

From that, I guess the extra Aberystwyth services couldn't terminate at Shrewsbury. They could perhaps go to Crewe as you say, however something else that looks like it might work is couple the unit coming in from Aberystwyth to a Holyhead - Birmingham at Shrewsbury, then uncouple the extra Aberystwyths from Birmingham - Holyheads at Shrewsbury. My rather basic estimates (assuming the new passing loops allow the extra Aberystwyths to run at the same point of the (other) hour as the current Cambrians) suggest that would require two extra units to make Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury hourly provided you never strengthen west of Machynlleth or Holyhead - Shrewsbury beyond the normal 2-car.

Yes possible Welsh bound train comes into 3 at Salop and splits, Brum bound units into 4 and join. Many here would prefer to go to Crewe for better connections to NW England and London though.

 

[Squaddie]

I would also love a reopening to Caernarvon from Bangor. I think there's a lot of potential - not just for students/locals and their access to employment, but also tourism (all those castles!) and leisure - Caernarvon being quite a big nightlife spot for the area! And it has 10,000 people, not a tiny amount.

Caernarfon deserves to be on the national rail network but much of the original trackbed now lies beneath the re-aligned A487 and town-centre commercial development, including a Morrisons supermarket on the site of the old station. It would require not a re-opening but a significant rebuilding, and I don't think such a project could be justified financially.

 

[jones_bangor]

Caernarfon deserves to be on the national rail network but much of the original trackbed now lies beneath the re-aligned A487 and town-centre commercial development, including a Morrisons supermarket on the site of the old station. It would require not a re-opening but a significant rebuilding, and I don't think such a project could be justified financially.

There is still a feasible alignment through the car park below Morrisons, and there's scope for a station site in the car park below Stryd y Porth - a possible interchange with the WHR which still only has a temporary station in Caernarfon.

£50 million does seem a lot, but it's comparable to road costs e.g. the Porthmadog by-pass at £40 million. It's just a question of priorities.

 

[tbtc]

£50 million does seem a lot, but it's comparable to road costs e.g. the Porthmadog by-pass at £40 million. It's just a question of priorities.

Considering the withdrawl of 34 bus journeys on Anglesey by a council trying to save a few quid, I'd be interested to know who has a spare £50m...

I don't know how the cuts to local bus services compares with the subsidy for a direct Anglesey - Cardiff flight, but as you say its all a question of priorities.

 

[Holly]

There is still a feasible alignment through the car park below Morrisons, and there's scope for a station site in the car park below Stryd y Porth - a possible interchange with the WHR which still only has a temporary station in Caernarfon. £50 million does seem a lot, but it's comparable to road costs e.g. the Porthmadog by-pass at £40 million. It's just a question of priorities.

Quite.
Isn't it fair to say that the only real hope of this line (Caernarvon-Bangor) happening is as a narrow gauge extension of the WHR?
As a tourist attraction offering a rail connection between, say, Rhyl, and Portmadoc it would attract a goodly number of tourists simply because it completes possible loops.

 

[Michael.Y]

Or advertise the link between Blaenau FFestiniog and Portmadoc more...

 

[Penmorfa]

Or advertise the link between Blaenau FFestiniog and Portmadoc more...

Whose relevance to Bangor - Caernarfon is what precisely?

 

[Squaddie]

There is still a feasible alignment through the car park below Morrisons, and there's scope for a station site in the car park below Stryd y Porth - a possible interchange with the WHR which still only has a temporary station in Caernarfon.

£50 million does seem a lot, but it's comparable to road costs e.g. the Porthmadog by-pass at £40 million. It's just a question of priorities.

I'm not sure where this figure of £50m comes from, but if it's costing £36m just to redouble a few miles of existing line near Wrexham then I would imagine it would cost significantly more than that to construct an entirely new line between Bangor and Caernarfon.

In any case, no matter how much money were thrown at the project, the end result would inevitably be a disappointment, as far removed from the romantic idea of a new railway as it is possible to get. There'd probably be a single platform with a bus shelter, served only by shabby, uncomfortable ATW DMUs, and such an outcome would, to my mind, be worse than having no railway at all. You may as well just stick with the buses, which are frequent, more convenient and generally more comfortable (and I say this as a rail enthusiast).

I think Holly is right in saying that the only realistic hope of a railway link between Caernarfon and Bangor ever being re-established is as an extension to the Welsh Highland Railway, and even that would take many years and cost many tens of millions.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think Holly is right in saying that the only realistic hope of a railway link between Caernarfon and Bangor ever being re-established is as an extension to the Welsh Highland Railway, and even that would take many years and cost many tens of millions.

Have the words Tywysog Cymru any possible input into this debate considering a certain investiture at Caernarfon in 1969 ?

 

[Penmorfa]

I'm not sure where this figure of £50m comes from, but if it's costing £36m just to redouble a few miles of existing line near Wrexham then I would imagine it would cost significantly more than that to construct an entirely new line between Bangor and Caernarfon.

I think Holly is right in saying that the only realistic hope of a railway link between Caernarfon and Bangor ever being re-established is as an extension to the Welsh Highland Railway, and even that would take many years and cost many tens of millions.

I think any narrow gauge line from Bangor to Caernarfon is a pipedream. It might get as far as Menai Bridge from the Caernarfon end but not into Bangor itself. I just cannot see Network Rail surrendering one track through Belmont Tunnel to the FR and the idea of mixed gauge track is fantasy. There are also several very large bridges to construct, notably one over the dual carriageway A55. That's apart from the difficulties of threading a path through Caernarfon and Felinheli.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quite.
Isn't it fair to say that the only real hope of this line (Caernarvon-Bangor) happening is as a narrow gauge extension of the WHR?
As a tourist attraction offering a rail connection between, say, Rhyl, and Portmadoc it would attract a goodly number of tourists simply because it completes possible loops.

They would have to be tourists with plenty of time to spare and quite deep pockets though.

 

[Michael.Y]

Whose relevance to Bangor - Caernarfon is what precisely?

I was replying to Holly's comment about providing a link between Rhyl and Portmadoc. One already exists via the Ffestiniog railway. The Ffestiniog Railway advertises connections to the Conwy Valley Line on its website.

 

[Holly]

Have the words Tywysog Cymru any possible input into this debate considering a certain investiture at Caernarfon in 1969 ?

Wasn't it Caernarvon until the Local Government Act 1972 when the latest name (Caernarfon) was adopted, or more exactly reinstated?

 

[Squaddie]

I think any narrow gauge line from Bangor to Caernarfon is a pipedream. It might get as far as Menai Bridge from the Caernarfon end but not into Bangor itself. I just cannot see Network Rail surrendering one track through Belmont Tunnel to the FR and the idea of mixed gauge track is fantasy. There are also several very large bridges to construct, notably one over the dual carriageway A55. That's apart from the difficulties of threading a path through Caernarfon and Felinheli.

I believe the reconstruction of a line of any gauge from Bangor to Caernarfon is a pipedream; I just happen to believe that if it ever were to happen it would more likely be built by WHR than Network Rail.

Wasn't it Caernarvon until the Local Government Act 1972 when the latest name (Caernarfon) was adopted, or more exactly reinstated?

Caernarvon (and the older Carnarvon) are anglicised versions of the correct name of the town.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have the words Tywysog Cymru any possible input into this debate considering a certain investiture at Caernarfon in 1969 ?

In order for us to answer that I think you're going to have to tell us what you mean by this rather cryptic post.

 

[pablo]

Ha ha;
http://www.isengard.co.uk/Phase 6.htm
Pipedream?

 

[Gareth Marston]

As from May tt change

1309 BHM INTL to Holyhead will be 6 carriages to Shrewsbury and 4 as far as Llandudno Jnc.
1509 BHM INTL to Holyhead will have 2 extra carriages added between Chester and Llandudno Jnc.
1730 Holyhead to Shrewsbury will have 2 extra carriages from Llandudno Jnc to Shrewsbury.
1523 & 1638 departures from Holyhead re timed to 1544 and 1650.
1544 Holyhead to BHM INTL will run non stop between Llandudno Jnc and Chester - for boat traffic.
1635 Llandudno Jnc - Chester extra service.

Cambrian-

0809 BHM INTL - Aberystwyth 4 car all week to Machynlleth.
0930 Aberystwyth to BHM INTL 4 car from Aberystwyth joined by 2 off coast at Machynlleth going forward as 6 car.

 

[Squaddie]

Ha ha;
http://www.isengard.co.uk/Phase 6.htm
Pipedream?

I still believe so.

The alignment will need moving into fields to the north for a few hundred metres at the roundabout at western end of the Y Felin Heli (Port Dinorwig) Bypass. A short diversion is also needed at the eastern end of the bypass just west of the roundabout, to carry the railway under the bypass where the B4547 already passes beneath. The railway would then need to cross over the A4087 on a new bridge, pass through the Vaynol Tunnel and the north cutting, which would need to be re-excavated. There has been some development on the alignment through Parc Menai north of Ffordd Gelli Morgan.

There is then the issue of a new Bangor sewage works to pass though before the new A55 is encountered. This will require raising an embankment and a new bridge before the route drops more steeply to the former Menai Bridge Junction to join the NR trackbed.

Which is not to say that I would not welcome such a scheme - I most certainly would - but there's no denying that there are significant practical obstacles to be overcome, all of which would require a great deal of money.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In order for us to answer that I think you're going to have to tell us what you mean by this rather cryptic post.

I would have thought the term Tywysog Cymru might have brought a response from the Welsh speakers on the forum, considering the title of the thread that we are on......or is my grammatical usage not strictly correct ?

 

[Penmorfa]

I still believe so.Which is not to say that I would not welcome such a scheme - I most certainly would - but there's no denying that there are significant practical obstacles to be overcome, all of which would require a great deal of money.

'Network Rail could be asked to release the trackbed of the Down line between Bangor station and the former Menai Bridge Junction, through Belmont tunnel.'

and why should Network Rail agree to that? In the week that millions of pounds are announced to be spent redoubling part of Wrexham - Chester along comes someone else trying to single part of another important line.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

I would have thought the term Tywysog Cymru might have brought a response from the Welsh speakers on the forum, considering the title of the thread that we are on......or is my grammatical usage not strictly correct ?

Why? What has he got to do with rail services in the area?

 

[Penmorfa]

Why? What has he got to do with rail services in the area?

Maybe Paul thinks we should all club together to reopen Bangor - Caernarfon so that at the next investiture the nobs can all arrive by train again?

 

[jones_bangor]

'Network Rail could be asked to release the trackbed of the Down line between Bangor station and the former Menai Bridge Junction, through Belmont tunnel.'

and why should Network Rail agree to that? In the week that millions of pounds are announced to be spent redoubling part of Wrexham - Chester along comes someone else trying to single part of another important line.

To be honest, there probably would be no impact whatsoever on Bangor - Holyhead services if the line were singled from Bangor - Llanfairpwll. In fact, would there be much impact if it were singled all the way to Holyhead?

Nevertheless, if you're going to open Bangor - Caernarfon, go all the way to Afonwen, the alignment is more or less there in it's entirety, with a few rusting signals still there as well e.g. to the north of Chwilog.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe Paul thinks we should all club together to reopen Bangor - Caernarfon so that at the next investiture the nobs can all arrive by train again?

No, seriously, but he does seem to become involved in discussions on certain projects and considering his title and where the investiture occurred, I could imagine that it would be something that he could make his feelings known upon.

It was only a passing thought that occurred to me whilst reading the threads :roll:.....Incidentally, was I grammatically correct in my usage of his title?

 

[merlodlliw]

As from May tt change

1309 BHM INTL to Holyhead will be 6 carriages to Shrewsbury and 4 as far as Llandudno Jnc.
1509 BHM INTL to Holyhead will have 2 extra carriages added between Chester and Llandudno Jnc.
1730 Holyhead to Shrewsbury will have 2 extra carriages from Llandudno Jnc to Shrewsbury.
1523 & 1638 departures from Holyhead re timed to 1544 and 1650.
1544 Holyhead to BHM INTL will run non stop between Llandudno Jnc and Chester - for boat traffic.
1635 Llandudno Jnc - Chester extra service.

Cambrian-

0809 BHM INTL - Aberystwyth 4 car all week to Machynlleth.
0930 Aberystwyth to BHM INTL 4 car from Aberystwyth joined by 2 off coast at Machynlleth going forward as 6 car.

Thanks Gareth, note the extra service from Junction at 1635.

Bob

where do you think all this extra 158 stock is from,it will go someway to assist chronic summer overcrowding on the coast

Bob

 

[Rhydgaled]

To be honest, there probably would be no impact whatsoever on Bangor - Holyhead services if the line were singled from Bangor - Llanfairpwll. In fact, would there be much impact if it were singled all the way to Holyhead?

Nevertheless, if you're going to open Bangor - Caernarfon, go all the way to Afonwen, the alignment is more or less there in it's entirety, with a few rusting signals still there as well e.g. to the north of Chwilog.

I think Bangor - Caernarfon should be built to standard guage as part of the national network. I wouldn't suggest extending to Afonwen, but would go that way for a while but then cut off across to Porthmadog, hence getting down to Machynlleth faster than if you used the line to Afonwen and reversed at Pwllheli.

where do you think all this extra 158 stock is from

I'd like to know this too. Maybe they are pulling all the 158s off Maesteg - Cheltenham and putting 150s in their place. Helps capacity but busts any hope of improved service frequency. Also maybe the 158s will all have been refurbished by then, when is the program due to be completed?

 

[Penmorfa]

To be honest, there probably would be no impact whatsoever on Bangor - Holyhead services if the line were singled from Bangor - Llanfairpwll. In fact, would there be much impact if it were singled all the way to Holyhead?

That's probably true as things stand today. After all it's just so simple to restore a line back to double track, is'nt it? The line across the island has had a lot of money spent on trackwork and it's now in excellent condition all the way to Holyhead.

Can you also say that this will be the case in 5/10 or 20 years time? Petrol and oil prices are at record levels and won't drop to the levels we've known in the past.

Can I be really controversial and suggest that in a few years time we might well be discussing the merits of a Holyhead - Dublin rail tunnel?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think Bangor - Caernarfon should be built to standard guage as part of the national network. I wouldn't suggest extending to Afonwen, but would go that way for a while but then cut off across to Porthmadog, hence getting down to Machynlleth faster than if you used the line to Afonwen and reversed at Pwllheli.

I'd like to know this too. Maybe they are pulling all the 158s off Maesteg - Cheltenham and putting 150s in their place. Helps capacity but busts any hope of improved service frequency. Also maybe the 158s will all have been refurbished by then, when is the program due to be completed?

"Smart use of limited resources" is the phrase in the letter. Though as we know ATW have all their 150's back form FGW however the 158 refurb is only at about 15/16 of 24.

 

[Squaddie]

I would have thought the term Tywysog Cymru might have brought a response from the Welsh speakers on the forum, considering the title of the thread that we are on......or is my grammatical usage not strictly correct ?

Your usage of the Welsh language is correct - for the non-Welsh speakers on this forum, Tywysog Cymru means Prince of Wales - and I am well aware that his investiture took place at Caernarfon Castle in 1969, but why would that have a "possible input into this debate"? I'm afraid I still don't understand your point.

Edit:

Apolgies; I missed your subsequent post.

No, seriously, but he does seem to become involved in discussions on certain projects and considering his title and where the investiture occurred, I could imagine that it would be something that he could make his feelings known upon.

I doubt very much that the Prince of Wales has any interest in either re-opening railway lines or in Caernarfon in general. His title is one that is bestowed automatically on every heir apparent, and he has shown little genuine interest in Wales or its affairs.

To be honest, there probably would be no impact whatsoever on Bangor - Holyhead services if the line were singled from Bangor - Llanfairpwll. In fact, would there be much impact if it were singled all the way to Holyhead?

Has the Wrexham - Saltney Junction saga (discussed to death on this forum) taught us nothing?

 

[jones_bangor]

That's probably true as things stand today. After all it's just so simple to restore a line back to double track, is'nt it? The line across the island has had a lot of money spent on trackwork and it's now in excellent condition all the way to Holyhead.

Can you also say that this will be the case in 5/10 or 20 years time? Petrol and oil prices are at record levels and won't drop to the levels we've known in the past.

Can I be really controversial and suggest that in a few years time we might well be discussing the merits of a Holyhead - Dublin rail tunnel?

My comments where tongue in cheek - there's no way I'd seriously suggest singling any line.

 

[Welshman]

I think Bangor - Caernarfon should be built to standard guage as part of the national network. I wouldn't suggest extending to Afonwen, but would go that way for a while but then cut off across to Porthmadog, hence getting down to Machynlleth faster than if you used the line to Afonwen and reversed at Pwllheli.

As I remember, the line from Caernarfon to Afon Wen trailed into the Pwllheli-Machynlleth line, so no reversal would be necessary.

The reversal at Afon Wen was for Butlin's Holiday traffic going up to Pwllheli.

 

[Squaddie]

As I remember, the line from Caernarfon to Afon Wen trailed into the Pwllheli-Machynlleth line, so no reversal would be necessary.

The reversal at Afon Wen was for Butlin's Holiday traffic going up to Pwllheli.

I have a timetable from the early 60s showing that Pwllheli had three direct services to London on Saturday mornings by different routes - one via Afonwen, Caernarfon and Crewe, one via Barmouth, Dolgellau and Ruabon and another via Machynlleth. There was also a direct train to Cardiff via Aberystwyth and Carmarthen. Such a difference to today's sad service.