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Petition: Campaign for Equal Marriage

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Minilad

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To counter that spin it back 20 or 30 years and I know a lot of gay people who id they had the choice, really wouldn't have been, go back some 50 years and I can think of some very significant people who's lives would have been much easyer if they where straight.

Some people today do like to think they can choose, but if we run a quick poll of those of us on here who are gay and if we chose to be or just are... Similarly, all those breeders on here, did you choose to be a breeder, or where you born that way?

But that was because of the conditions at the time surely.

So basically then I would say the theory isn't proven at all, as lets be honest, when we are born we don't know whats in store for us. And If it is because you are born gay or straight then whats the deal with bisexuals. Are they just being greedy !!
 
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Eagle

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I wouldn't say at all I chose my sexuality, although there was a definite point where I accepted it, which is vaguely similar; but at the same time I can't imagine it was born into me; that it's more a combination of nurture, environment and most importantly life events (okay, maybe with more than a dash of genetic predisposal thrown in). Still completely involuntary though.
 

Nym

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But that was because of the conditions at the time surely.

So basically then I would say the theory isn't proven at all, as lets be honest, when we are born we don't know whats in store for us. And If it is because you are born gay or straight then whats the deal with bisexuals. Are they just being greedy !!

From the studies that I have looked at it seems to be a case for a combination of nature and nurture, but I can tell you for nothing that most bi-sexuals aren't actually, the're trying to sexualise themselves in limbo to be popular in both parts (for the most part). A significant amount of bi sexuals are in the far off segments of socity and are using the baser instinct of sexual attraction to both sexes to try and make themselves feel attracted to both, and therefore the counter attraction, or lust from the other party is percived as acceptance into a sect of socity for the bisexual in question.

There are some for whom gender is not an issue and they simply enjoy sexual contact of any kind, those are more known as pan-sexuals rather than bi-sexuals as there is no distinction made to gender, simply that they want sex and it doesn't matter what gender with. These tend not to be the social outcasts looking for some sect to accept them, meerly 'greedy people'.

Anyway, it's 11:09pm and I'm supposed to be doing some PESTEL analysis, and it's not working!
 

Eagle

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There are some for whom gender is not an issue and they simply enjoy sexual contact of any kind, those are more known as pan-sexuals rather than bi-sexuals as there is no distinction made to gender, simply that they want sex and it doesn't matter what gender with.
This describes me but...

These tend not to be the social outcasts looking for some sect to accept them, meerly 'greedy people'.
I'm very offended that you think it's me being greedy. Just because gender plays no part in attraction for me, doesn't mean I'm just gagging for sex or anything.

Seriously, Nym, you seem to be increasingly out of touch with how other people think.
 

Nym

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I wouldn't say at all I chose my sexuality, although there was a definite point where I accepted it, which is vaguely similar; but at the same time I can't imagine it was born into me; that it's more a combination of nurture, environment and most importantly life events (okay, maybe with more than a dash of genetic predisposal thrown in). Still completely involuntary though.

OK, out of curiosity, don't have to say...

But was this at the point where you accepted you had A sexuality, or did you accept you had a sexual part to your being, then homosexuality, or vice versa?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This describes me but...


I'm very offended that you think it's me being greedy. Just because gender plays no part in attraction for me, doesn't mean I'm just gagging for sex or anything.

Seriously, Nym, you seem to be increasingly out of touch with how other people think.

Please note I put 'greedy people' in the quotes there Eagle...
 

LE Greys

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From the studies that I have looked at it seems to be a case for a combination of nature and nurture, but I can tell you for nothing that most bi-sexuals aren't actually, the're trying to sexualise themselves in limbo to be popular in both parts (for the most part). A significant amount of bi sexuals are in the far off segments of socity and are using the baser instinct of sexual attraction to both sexes to try and make themselves feel attracted to both, and therefore the counter attraction, or lust from the other party is percived as acceptance into a sect of socity for the bisexual in question.

There are some for whom gender is not an issue and they simply enjoy sexual contact of any kind, those are more known as pan-sexuals rather than bi-sexuals as there is no distinction made to gender, simply that they want sex and it doesn't matter what gender with. These tend not to be the social outcasts looking for some sect to accept them, meerly 'greedy people'.

An alternative interpretation is that there is a sexual spectrum and that everyone falls onto it at some point. However that's way outside my field, I tend to specialise in Fish and their behaviour can be weird enough, but at least its predictable.

Anyway, it's 11:09pm and I'm supposed to be doing some PESTEL analysis, and it's not working!

Fair enough, I'm supposed to be writing a report (although it's not due until the end of term). Good night.
 

Eagle

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But was this at the point where you accepted you had A sexuality, or did you accept you had a sexual part to your being, then homosexuality, or vice versa?

I'm not gay. I'm bi, but I don't like that word so much because of its "both ... and" overtone, which isn't a fair way of describing it (it's more a "gender-blind" kind of thing for me).

And yes, it was a point where I accepted I had a sexuality, and that it seemed not to be gender-dependent, both acceptances at once.
 

Nym

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Oh I do agree with the spectrum analysis for most things phycological, and I'm firmly aginst the catogarisation of persons and personality that modern soc. seems to insist on, (Straight / Gay / Bi), (Normal / Asburges / Autistic), (Top / Middle / Bottom [skillsets in schools, not "that"!]), etc etc.

Perhaps it would have been better to explain what I class as pan-sexual as something in the realm of gender neutrality in sexual attraction?
 

Eagle

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Oh I do agree with the spectrum analysis...

I don't. I don't see myself as being on any kind of gay/straight spectrum or continuum; rather as being separate from that system (where people are more attracted in varying amounts to a specific gender)
 

Nym

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I don't. I don't see myself as being on any kind of gay/straight spectrum or continuum; rather as being separate from that system (where people are more attracted in varying amounts to a specific gender)


The spectrums I use don't exist in Certisian space and have many many more axis that most can comprihend. The last model I used to try and discribe my expectations / desires to someone ran into about 14 axes and then they got bored and buggered off. (Well they did ask!)

The upmoast simplest model I can think of for basic sexual attraction only just fits into 3d, (a triangular based pyramid) and theres no point in trying to explain >3d moddeling for explaining things on a socialogical level without getting into numerical phycometric analysis, that I actually don't agree with as a good testing method for a definate finite analysis.
 

ANorthernGuard

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I couldn't care less if you are straight, gay, bi, black, white, male, female if you want to show your love for each other through the act of marriage I can't see what the problem is!
 

DaveNewcastle

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If people are posting saying they wouldn't support it, given it's a forum, it's just interesting to find out why.
@Badger. I responded to something you raised in post #31.
But I can't seem to find a reply.

If its of any assistance, I had no wish to try to gather evidence to support one view or another, but I can say that it would be helpful to me, and maybe others, if you could find the time to consider the question of consequential impact and alternative remedies which interested me iand which I was enquiring about in that question in Post #31.
I suspect the answers to this may have quite substantial influence on the matter we're discussing.
I see that you've been responding to other people's posts, so wonder if you might have simply overlooked my question.

Thanks
 

Mojo

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So you are saying someone cannot hold a view that you don't agree with then. Don't you realise that some people feel just as strongly about this but from the other side.
Wow. Staggering
Where it becomes a matter where the person to whom you are discriminating against has no choice in the matter - then I cannot see why anyone should be able to hold the right to take away their own right to a peaceful life and equality.
 

ralphchadkirk

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I couldn't care less if you are straight, gay, bi, black, white, male, female if you want to show your love for each other through the act of marriage I can't see what the problem is!

Much the same as me.

However, I strongly feel that everyone is entitled to their own opinions and is entitled to express them in a mature debate such as this.
 

Minilad

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Where it becomes a matter where the person to whom you are discriminating against has no choice in the matter - then I cannot see why anyone should be able to hold the right to take away their own right to a peaceful life and equality.

Who said anything about discriminating. Show me where in any of my posts I have suggested that. I am just saying someone has the right to find being gay unacceptable just as much as a gay person has the right to be gay. No discrimination. Just hold a view
 

district

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Who said anything about discriminating. Show me where in any of my posts I have suggested that. I am just saying someone has the right to find being gay unacceptable just as much as a gay person has the right to be gay. No discrimination. Just hold a view

Why does anyone hold a right to hate someone else, through no fault of that other person? You wouldn't be able to hate a disabled person in such a manner? And what gives someone the right to express that view?

Homophobia is a major issue in society. It is getting worse. It seems you can hardly walk down the street without some issue arising!
 

Badger

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Am I allowed to believe an aspect of your life is completely disgusting and unacceptable too? "You were born with brown eyes, I find that completely disgusting and attrocious. Because of that I hate you. But that's just my opinion."

I actually, while everyone does have the right to their opinion, do believe such an opinion is still discrimination: [you're] deciding what to dislike solely based on an aspect of that person which is not under their control, i.e. disliking a person for being a little person, or for being disabled.

I'm not saying [you] don't have a right to! Just that it is still by definition discrimination.

...when people say "I'm gay, deal with it" they aren't saying "I'm gay, you should have sex with a man too". They're not trying to change your opinion. They're just saying that if you have that opinion, [you] need to learn to deal with it, because it's not going to go away just because [you] don't like it.

(I'm sorry... using "you" too much again. I mean the proverbial you, as in "a hypothetical person who holds such a view", not referring to any post at all).

Incidentally, people also have the opinion that an aspect of myself doesn't exist. And I do think that, in such cases, such an opinion is harmful and bad; i.e. some opinions are "wrong" and dangerous. Because even if no action is taken, the fact someone can "believe" that something "doesn't happen" means no treatment, no support, and other things. One could just as easily have the opinion that cancer doesn't exist, but it's still a dangerous and "wrong" opinion.

I'm not good at this kind of debate to be honest... I know what I mean in my head.

See, though, going back to what I was saying, because people can hold the opinion that x doesn't exist, I end up having to debate in my favour every time it crops up. And that's dangerous territory, because you're debating opinions then, and opinions can't really be debated... it's easier to come up with a right or wrong medically and have everybody agree with that (not saying it's right or wrong), because then I'm/they're/people're not having to prove themselves before starting the real business of treatment or support or whatever.

In short,

- People can hold any opinion they want, but
- Some opinions are "bad" or "wrong" opinions, and
- Such opinions can affect real life even if no actions are taken, and
- Some things shouldn't be opinions

"Some things shouldn't be opinions":

Now this is an important thing and... I don't know where I stand on this. But I think, I believe, that some things shouldn't be opinions.

Does god exist? Shouldn't necessarily be an opinion but since we can't test it it is philosophical and so can be an opinion.

Are people ever born gay? Shoudn't be an opinion because it's a scientifically testable fact (it's either true or false, it can't differ from person to person's opinion...)

Are oranges orange? Shouldn't be an opinion because it is immediately testable and there is evidence (although a bad argument because colour blindness and whatnot, but you get the idea).

Does cancer exist as a thing? Shouldn't be an opinion because it is testable and there is evidence.

... then there's the grey area though.

Is x right or wrong? Now that's a matter of opinion... and I really don't know how to respond to that. People have a right to this opinion, and it's all down to how one personally perceives right and wrong...
 

district

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I completely agree with your four points, and if you don't mind I'll be using them tomorrow. I've got a lecture from the Behaviour & Attendance manager at my college about how I shouldn't be so 'confrontational' to homophobes despite being attacked on a daily basis. Not just by students, neither.
 

SS4

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If there is a referendum would one have to abstain rather than vote no if they didn't want to discriminate?
 

Badger

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It's one of those cases where democracy doesn't really work. I.e. voting to repeal human rights, or voting-in a dictator for life. Unfortunately to have a proper democracy, you need to have restrictions on what can be voted for... doesn't seem to make sense but it's the only way it can work.
 

Nym

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Homophobia is a major issue in society. It is getting worse. It seems you can hardly walk down the street without some issue arising!

Sorry District, how old are you, I'm only in my 20s and it's within my own living memory when homophobia was much worse in society than it is now, have you ever been walking down the street recently and had bricks launched at you because of your sexuality?

Go back some 30 or 40 years and it was institutionalised within the goverment and society, so I'd like to know how you can think we have it worse now?

Unless of course you're refering to the short term, and I wouldn't know much on that myself since my view of society is sqewed by moving from semi rural East Yorkshire, to Manchester, to Bolton...

But having lived in Bolton for over three years now, I havn't noticed any recent changes for the worse, either in Bolton or Manchester, in Bolton it seems to be private business and no-one really cares (the way it should be IMO, why is it that sexuality matters in everyday life, it's private business!!) or in Manchester where sexuality is more in the public domain, but is now treated as a manner of indiference, usually, "Oh, really? Didn't realise, anyway..." whenever it comes out into the forefront as to what gender I enjoy sexual acts with.

So really, what is getting worse?

PS: It took until very recent years for discrimination based on sexuality to be removed from most of UK law, and there is still some in there...
 

Nym

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Perhaps then his experiences of homophobia are getting worse because he's coming into an age of self social responsibilty, and starting to mix with those that speak with their fists rather than keep quiet and to themselves?
 

district

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Sorry District, how old are you, I'm only in my 20s and it's within my own living memory when homophobia was much worse in society than it is now, have you ever been walking down the street recently and had bricks launched at you because of your sexuality?

Go back some 30 or 40 years and it was institutionalised within the goverment and society, so I'd like to know how you can think we have it worse now?

It certainly may not be as bad as it was then, but it is worse than 5 years ago. http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=11059.

And not bricks, no. But there have been 3 incidents where I've had to call 999 and feared for mine and my partner's safety (West Mids and Kent) - these within the last 2 months.
 

Badger

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I've been punched, spat at, and had my hair pulled for "looking gay" (regardless of what my sexuality actually is). I'd be in a bad position to comment on whether it's worse than before, but it's definately still an issue.
 

Nym

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OK, don't take this offensively, but is this not perhaps because people these days lack subtily and go around rubbing their sexuality in other peoples faces and get their backs up about it?

Kind of how someone dressing provokatively is more likely to get raped...? (Not trying to push buttons, just make a point in non-uncertain terms)

The whole thread has been about a move toward normality...
 

WestCoast

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OK, don't take this offensively, but is this not perhaps because people these days lack subtily and go around rubbing their sexuality in other peoples faces and get their backs up about it?

What constitutes that though? Parallels can be drawn with the incident involving the couple badly beaten up on the Metrolink, because they were 'goths', wearing the 'gothic clothing' which some 'thugs' apparently objected to.
 

flymo

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Just out of curiosity and this whole equal rights for marriage thing, what happens in the event that things go wrong after said 'marriage'. Are there equal rights for the divorce as well? Surely one cannot have the good without thinking of the bad.

For the record I have no opinion on the issue of equal rights for marriage as long as both parties agree to be legally bound by any such rules of 'marriage' and the fallout thereof, including divorce and division of any accrued matrimonial assets.
 
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