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25KV OLE diagrams & support info ?

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eMeS

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I'm a retired electrical engineer from the military radar/avionics sector, and whilst I "theoretically" understand what the OLE is about, I'd appreciate a link to a web-based article/page explaining what all the catenary wires/insulators/suspension systems are doing.

(And I have Googled, but probably didn't insert the correct search terms...)

Many Thanks
 
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Nym

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If you fancy splashing some cash, the IET bookshop has some rather nice looking books on the matter, even though that proberbly isn't helpful...
 

ole man

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I'm a retired electrical engineer from the military radar/avionics sector, and whilst I "theoretically" understand what the OLE is about, I'd appreciate a link to a web-based article/page explaining what all the catenary wires/insulators/suspension systems are doing.

(And I have Googled, but probably didn't insert the correct search terms...)

Many Thanks
There is a book from Siemens that explains everything you need to know, and i mean everything, it don't understand half of it, but it 300 quid so it's dear.

Im back on days Wed in the office i will see if i can put some basic stuff on here or i will PM you some stuff.

What are you interested in?
 

Old Timer

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I'm a retired electrical engineer from the military radar/avionics sector, and whilst I "theoretically" understand what the OLE is about, I'd appreciate a link to a web-based article/page explaining what all the catenary wires/insulators/suspension systems are doing.

(And I have Googled, but probably didn't insert the correct search terms...)

Many Thanks

The following sites such give you a good insight.

http://fatbaldbloke.bravehost.com/multitrack.html

http://kataner.com/OHL-components.pdf

ftp://158.132.178.85/cttse/Paul07/E533 Wk9 for printing/OHL01 - Appreciation General.pdf
 

eMeS

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Many thanks for all your replies - plenty for me to download and look at. Hopefully I'll better understand how it all goes together.

I live near the WCML and I notice that on both external sides of the four line track, the steel posts carry a pair of cables separated vertically by about 3-400mm, and insulated from the steel supports. Are these earth return conductors or additional supply conductors to take some of the load off the catenary wires? Or something else entirely!
 

swt_passenger

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Many thanks for all your replies - plenty for me to download and look at. Hopefully I'll better understand how it all goes together.

I live near the WCML and I notice that on both external sides of the four line track, the steel posts carry a pair of cables separated vertically by about 3-400mm, and insulated from the steel supports. Are these earth return conductors or additional supply conductors to take some of the load off the catenary wires? Or something else entirely!

The cable stood off on insulators is an auto transformer feeder cable. Basically the power supply is 25 kV - O - 25 kV. There's a short summary in this article, happens to be about Thameslink specifics, but it is the modern standard for high power requirements across the board:

http://www.rail.co/2011/01/10/thameslink-programme-power-enhancement/
 

brianthegiant

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I've always wondered... are there any usually any motor operated circuit breakers, which can be tripped from say the signalling centre in the event of an emergency?
(e.g. report of drunk person /child climbing on train, as has happened at Manchester Oxford Rd and also I recall at a freight yard)

or would a substation visit by an engineer be needed?
 

Nym

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If it's anything like what I have seen at some of ABB's installations there are remote trippable (Electromechanical) VCB circuit brakers on the supply lines for grid isolation. So I would assume this is possible.
 

HSTEd

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One would assume there would be motor operated VCBs on the power supply line and possibly also connecting the line to ground to enable the line to be grounded in seconds remotely.

But that would just be what I would do if I was designing the system from scratch.
 

1978NWUK

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The CB's are remotely controlled by electric control room operators who have buildings throughout the country, they operate the CB's for planned isolations or in emergency situations, or if there is a fault current, I.E, an object coming into contact with the OLE the breakers will open automatically.
There are numerous lineside switches on the electrified system that can also be operated remotely (ECO) or manually( by OLE staff on site ) to effect an isolation or shorten the affected area after an emergency. Have a look at this link, it explains the system a little and the procedures carried out - http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDYQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rssb.co.uk%2FSiteCollectionDocuments%2Fpdf%2Freports%2Fresearch%2FT345_rpt2_final.pdf&ei=sV5LT7voDsbE8QOm48ScDg&usg=AFQjCNGTwxu4cRRdfT4Q8HGyk0829p4p3Q, not too good at posting links, hope it works!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Wikipedia is also a good source of info as well, type in railway electrification and there's good info on there, this is another link, albeit an old one, about the system more in depth, it shows the classic 25kv AC system,http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...mv2xDg&usg=AFQjCNH4qKx88-6C3kgZaIhlDPFqJWC0vg I'll have a look at my files tomorrow in work to see what I've got on the 25-0-25kv Auto transformer system.
 
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eMeS

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... Have a look at this link, it explains the system a little and the procedures carried out - ... not too good at posting links, hope it works!
... this is another link, albeit an old one, about the system more in depth, it shows the classic 25kv AC system,... I'll have a look at my files tomorrow in work to see what I've got on the 25-0-25kv Auto transformer system.

Excellent!

Both your links worked fine, and I've now got masses of stuff to look at, and perhaps compare with the practices I used to be responsible for in the avionics field!

I must say I was somewhat concerned to see in the first link a mention of a possible earth resistance of 20ohms!
 

brianthegiant

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The maximum allowable earth resistance will be derived from the maximum allowable 'touch' and 'step' potential which a person standing near equipment might experience when a fault in the 25kV system occurs. This is covered in the BS for earthing. calcs tend to assume people are wearing some sort of shoes. so never go near a substation in bare feet on a wet day (just in case) ;)
 

HSTEd

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I don't want to sound like an idiot.

But is 25kV the RMS voltage or the peak voltage? Ie would P=IV hold with the value of 25kV or would I have to adjust for it being an AC waveform.
 

Nym

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It is the RMS yes, for any AC System one assumes the RMS for Current and Voltage in a true sinisoid.

However, P!=IV...

|S| = |I| x |V| Holds true, where S is the "Aparent Power"

|P| in an AC system is expressable by |I||V| Cos (φ) or alternatively Re[I*V]...

And no, you don't sound like an idiot, I know 3rd year E&EE students who have failed to grasp the consept, of Real, Reactive and Aparent power.

In an ideal world, Real Power is Aparent Power with no Reactive Power, but we don't live in an ideal world, Real Power is the equivilant of DC Power that most people understand (P=IV, I^2 R etc.), reactive power is as a result of inductive or capacitive loads that cause the current and voltage to go out of phase, and is therefore uselss, but still seen by transformers etc, shown as Q. Aparent Power is the complex summation of the two (S = P + iQ) for maths and physics, but (S = P + jQ) for E&EE...
 
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It is the RMS yes, for any AC System one assumes the RMS for Current and Voltage in a true sinisoid.

However, P!=IV...

|S| = |I| x |V| Holds true, where S is the "Aparent Power"

|P| in an AC system is expressable by |I||V| Cos (φ) or alternatively Re[I*V]...

And no, you don't sound like an idiot, I know 3rd year E&EE students who have failed to grasp the consept, of Real, Reactive and Aparent power.

In an ideal world, Real Power is Aparent Power with no Reactive Power, but we don't live in an ideal world, Real Power is the equivilant of DC Power that most people understand (P=IV, I^2 R etc.), reactive power is as a result of inductive or capacitive loads that cause the current and voltage to go out of phase, and is therefore uselss, but still seen by transformers etc, shown as Q. Aparent Power is the complex summation of the two (S = P + iQ) for maths and physics, but (S = P + jQ) for E&EE...

These 3rd year E&EE students you talk about, did they grasp the CONCEPT of basic spelling ?:lol:
 
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HSTEd

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Ha, ha, very funny, take the mick out of someone being helpful to a member asking for information because he types it in a hurry and can't spell properly when he does...

I suppose its extremely nieve to assume that a traction package appears as a purely resistive load then?

Do they fit reactive power sinks/sources to substations or is it simply drawn from/pushed two the grid (some sort of static thing I would assume rather than a synchronous condenser).
 

Nym

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I suppose its extremely nieve to assume that a traction package appears as a purely resistive load then?

Do they fit reactive power sinks/sources to substations or is it simply drawn from/pushed two the grid (some sort of static thing I would assume rather than a synchronous condenser).

Very, but it depends on the age and quality of the system to be honest.

Modern VSDs (Variable Speed Drives) draw an almost perfect pure resistive load, regardless of how inductive the motor is, they also draw very little in the way of harmonics. The main driver for this is a new standards coming in from the National Grid, EU, IET (Institute of Enginering and Technology, formally the IEE), etc. All modern rail vehicles use AC Motors and Variable Speed Drives, so theorectially they are near perfectly resistive with no harmonics, realistically I'd expect a power factor (Amount of active power compared with aparent power) to be around 0.95 for old equipment and 0.99 for newer equipment, since it's very rare anything is perfect, but I have seen some ABB equipment on bench test for a variable load VSD driven induction device running at 0.99995 and that is very impressive (and expensive!).

On older AC systems, not used in the rail industry (at least not extensively) connect directly to the 3phase 50Hz grid, so will ONLY run at 3000, 1500, 750, etc. rpm, and are only really useful when you have all three phases available, not so on rail. These older (and still used for single speed systems) systems have capacitor banks to correct the inductive nature of the motor, but they produce relatively high levels of harmonics, not something you want kicking around as it tends to boil transformers and make power electronics go pop.

Older rail systems tend to use DC traction motors, and indeed before Thyristors where starting to be used (on 87101) very little in the way of power electronics was used, making the use of AC traction motors near impossible as you cannot acheive the switching frequencies needed with Reeds or Relays. Tending to rely on DC traction motors meant that power was 'decided' by chaning the armature or winding currents, usually by altering the voltage across these components via a rectifier.

In such a system the inductive nature of the wound devices (motors, transformers) will transfer to the grid connection, but back then, we either didn't care, or just fitted insanely large electrolytic capacitors with little care for harmonics (electrolytic capacitors are made of aluminium and paper, don't work above 80C (go pop) and have extremely poor harmonics performance. Neither of these are desireable in a modern system, hence moving onto the use of three phase tracton motors fed by variable speed three phase drives (invertors), another advantage being that these can be fed from either AC or DC feeds.
 
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