York and north Yorkshire franchising

[RT4038]

What's he gonna do... return buses to Bilsdale as, as Moorsbus demonstrates there's a demand? Or Coverdale or Thornton Steward - all places that have largely fallen off the public transport map. As I'm bored of saying, we can't just spend an extra £100k's+ on developing new or introducing enhanced services in areas where the base population is small. That isn't to say that there aren't some links that would benefit and whilst not commercial, the juice would be worth the squeeze.

I guess this will be the issue caused by those 'successful' people who moved from the urban areas to the picturesque and now seriously upmarket rural villages since the 80s or have retired to them more recently, who are now getting old and unable / not wanting to use their car so much. Not having used their village bus service at all, they now find a weekly (or so) shopping excursion type service a little constricting for hospital visits, the annual trip to visit the grandchildren in Bracknell or Goring etc. and are now decrying the poor public transport.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I can see why they might be distracted with West Yorkshire and the untold riches that they might get from that. However, spending time trying to sort out some rather disparate services in North Yorkshire for relatively little return seems a stretch too far.

Apart from the York-Ripon services which they've improved with the quicker 84, it's all relatively low demand services with some seasonal demand (31X and 81) for some tourists in York. The rest (80, 182 & 194) are quiet routes that don't seem worthwhile for East Yorkshire, especially with the dead running required for some of those routes.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I guess this will be the issue caused by those 'successful' people who moved from the urban areas to the picturesque and now seriously upmarket rural villages since the 80s or have retired to them more recently, who are now getting old and unable / not wanting to use their car so much. Not having used their village bus service at all, they now find a weekly (or so) shopping excursion type service a little constricting for hospital visits, the annual trip to visit the grandchildren in Bracknell or Goring etc. and are now decrying the poor public transport.

Certainly, some truth there and this is real subsistence territory.

As I'm sure you recognise, many villages that had non-driving women (in the main) who had never learned. As well as incomers, you've had a generation who have been able to drive but when they are no longer able to... And yes, Richmondshire is ageing - nearly 30% are over 65.

A big issue is holiday homes. About 20% of homes in the National Park are holiday homes/lets etc and those inhabitants are a lot less likely to use a bus.

Apart from the York-Ripon services which they've improved with the quicker 84, it's all relatively low demand services with some seasonal demand (31X and 81) for some tourists in York. The rest (80, 182 & 194) are quiet routes that don't seem worthwhile for East Yorkshire, especially with the dead running required for some of those routes.

They're all tendered so not a pot of gold.

 

[YorkRailFan]

They're all tendered so not a pot of gold.

Well yes, but some have higher patronage than others. York-Ripon will have the highest patronage out of all of the services they won in 2024.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well yes, but some have higher patronage than others. York-Ripon will have the highest patronage out of all of the services they won in 2024.

Yes but the tender prices reflect revenue - they might be busier but they still won't be that lucrative.

 

[WAB]

North Yorkshire has avoided the bus station obsession of its neighbours in West Yorkshire so far, with its bus stations resembling glorified traffic islands and lay-bys mostly. I was bemused by the disused automatic doors at Skipton, for instance.

Is there the possibility that enhanced bus stations may be the route that YNY go down?

 

[Snex]

I'm not convinced that those ultra-long routes are worthwhile – the longer the route, the more complicated it becomes to timetable, schedule and operate robustly and reliably. You end up with buses running a long way from their home depot, which makes it vulnerable in the event of breakdowns or other problems. It's harder to vary frequency or capacity on different sections of the route to meet demand appropriately.

Very long routes tend to work well in two circumstances: (1) where they fill a significant gap in the rail network connecting substantial towns with no useful rail link, and (b) links from sizeable urban areas to the seaside. Those are the times when people will be prepared to sit on a bus for a long journey ... and if you haven't got through passengers then you haven't got a rationale for a through service.
In North Yorkshire, the X93/X94 and Coastliner meet those goals, but not the routes you've suggested.

• York – Northallerton – Darlington is a corridor that is well served by rail. There is strong demand for buses between York, Easingwold and Thirsk, but not beyond that. Northallerton to York is at least every half-hour by train, with journeys taking 20–30 minutes, whereas by bus you would be looking at 90 minutes. From York to Darlington, it's even worse. Demand for travel from any other intermediate villages is minimal.
• York – Helmsley – Scarborough is a long way round for no good reason. It would take about an hour longer from York to Scarborough than the direct 843, and probably 45 minutes longer from York to Pickering than the direct 840. Demand for travel from Easingwold to Pickering and Scarborough (and other intermediate villages along those two corridors) is negligible.
• Ripon – Northallerton – Middlesbrough is not serving any viable market long-distance. It just isn't.
• Leyburn – Northallerton has been done to death already but isn't an ultra-long route anyway.

That isn't to say that I think all the bus services along those corridors are adequate and are not in need of improvement – but that the improvements need to be localised and tailored to what potential market there is. For example, I do believe that the Scarborough to Helmsley corridor merits an hourly service ... but I can't see the need for that frequency between Helmsley and York, increasing that to every 2 hours would be ample. That's why linking them together isn't the right solution, because demand is going to vary significantly at different points along the route.

Honestly fair points, don't disagree. Same to the other posters who posted earlier, don't want to make the quotes horribly long for no reason.

To be honest, it's the sort of area where it'd be interesting to do proper connection services and just join them together timetabling really; mostly for the different size bus issue really.

Mind that said, I do think having interchanges at Thirsk and Northallerton Rail Stations and actually have the buses connecting with trains would be a good move. It's a fair trek from the bus stands at the top of the High Street to the station at Northallerton and Thirsk station is pretty much in the middle of nowhere. It's all good saying it's only 20 minutes on the train but you've got to get there first.

 

[YorkRailFan]

North Yorkshire has avoided the bus station obsession of its neighbours in West Yorkshire so far, with its bus stations resembling glorified traffic islands and lay-bys mostly. I was bemused by the disused automatic doors at Skipton, for instance.

Is there the possibility that enhanced bus stations may be the route that YNY go down?

Where would you have enhanced bus stations or just bus stations in general? Currently, Ripon, Skipton, Harrogate, Selby, Tadcaster, Knaresborough, Whitby, Filey & Malton have bus stations (using that phrase quite liberally here). Aside from perhaps Harrogate, they're all quite bare minimum and primitive. Everywhere else has on street Interchanges (including York) where multiple bus services stop at a mostly central place in the town (or city in the case of York). Some of the existing bus stations (again, using that word quite liberally) are built by train stations, like in Selby, Harrogate, Malton, Whitby and Filey. I think Interchange would be a more appropriate description than bus station for a lot of these places though. York Station has a bus interchange outside as well.

Mind that said, I do think having interchanges at Thirsk and Northallerton Rail Stations and actually have the buses connecting with trains would be a good move. It's a fair trek from the bus stands at the top of the High Street to the station at Northallerton and Thirsk station is pretty much in the middle of nowhere. It's all good saying it's only 20 minutes on the train but you've got to get there first.

Northallerton station has 2bph on the 73 into Northallerton. That's not too bad for a station of Northallerton's size. There was a mention of a later bus from Northallerton station on the 73 to Bedale to meet the last Grand Central service from London which would be a good improvement.

As for Thirsk, there is scope for an hourly Thirsk-Ripon service (possibly starting from Northallerton) which would run via Thirsk Station. You could run a shuttle minibus between Thirsk & Thirsk Station to meet the TPE service (possibly with extras to meet the Grand Central services) as well.

 

[johncrossley]

Where would you have enhanced bus stations or just bus stations in general? Currently, Ripon, Skipton, Harrogate, Selby, Knaresborough, Whitby, Filey & Malton have bus stations (using that phrase quite liberally here). Aside from perhaps Harrogate, they're all quite bare minimum and primitive

Is there evidence that fancy West Yorkshire style bus stations generate additional custom? I personally see them as doing more harm than good because they attract anti-social behaviour. That is evidenced by the need for security staff. This is probably why well resourced transport authorities in Europe don't have them for the most part even though they could easily afford to build them. Lots of towns noted for higher than average usage don't use bus stations or only use bus stations for a minority of services (mostly out of town).

 

[YorkRailFan]

Is there evidence that fancy West Yorkshire style bus stations generate additional custom? I personally see them as doing more harm than good because they attract anti-social behaviour. That is evidenced by the need for security staff. This is probably why well resourced transport authorities in Europe don't have them for the most part even though they could easily afford to build them. Lots of towns noted for higher than average usage don't use bus stations or only use bus stations for a minority of services (mostly out of town).

I don't know. I think that the current set-up of having a handful of bus stops street side in the centre of a town is the best set up for most of North Yorkshire. There just isn't the volume of passengers to justify one. Harrogate Bus Station seems to be the exception with the high frequency of routes like the 36 and the 1 bringing in lots of people and with it being a stones throw from the train station. Given York's set up, there doesn't seem to be anywhere really appropriate to build a bus station so the current interchanges across the city seem to be the best option.

As for West Yorkshire, its a completely different area to North Yorkshire. Far denser and urban. A bus station might be more appropriate in West Yorkshire as a central interchange and will have far higher passenger numbers than anywhere in North Yorkshire. From the antisocial behaviour stance, anywhere that is a place to hang out can be a victim of antisocial behaviour. Its not just bus stations, shopping centres also have security for multiple reasons including the centres being a place to hang out and commit antisocial behaviour along with theft from stores. Train Stations also have security to deal with antisocial behaviour as they're places to hang out.

 

[John HG1]

Yes, bus stations can attract anti-social behaviour, but do they feel less safe than having to wait at a bus stop by the road on a dark night?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Bus stations are perhaps the least of North Yorkshire's worries. Having more buses might be a more pressing issue.

Of course, if you're one of those metropolitan types, service headways are usually at a level where a bus station is less of a consideration. You're waiting for less time for your next bus so if you spend 5-10 mins at a bus shelter, that's less of an issue. Not so in the provinces! If your next bus is 30 mins away, you might want some facilities?

The flipside is that you need a set of bus services with sufficient traffic to justify it. There are a few in West Yorkshire like Cleckheaton and Batley where you question whether such a high quality facility is really justified, and there are a number of other places around the UK that are similarly questionable.

The only places in North Yorkshire that I can think of that need anything new are Scarborough (perhaps by getting rid of the former Comet store which is a 1980s eyesore). Harrogate could perhaps do with something a bit better, and Northallerton could do with a larger shelter. Other than that, don't really see many obvious contenders to improve what is currently provided. Oh, and there are ways in which to deal with anti-social behaviour. At Merthyr, the place has 12 stands in the main building but two that are just outside though covered by the canopy. They're used after 1900 when the building is locked up but still offer some shelter from the elements.

 

[gc4946]

I worked out from Bustimes how feasible currently travelling by bus between York-Darlington via Thirsk and Northallerton and vice versa based on a weekday schedule during concession (ENCTS) validity.
Obviously hardly anyone would want to travel all the way by bus, but these examples point out how uneven connections are between services.
On weekdays, journeys starting in York and North Yorkshire are valid from 0900 using ENCTS.

Coastliner 30 departs York Station Avenue depart 0930, arrives Thirsk Market Place 1038
North Yorkshire Council 153 departs Thirsk Market Place 1040, arrives Northallerton Buck Inn 1115
Hodgsons 72 departs Northallerton Buck Inn 1210, arrives Darlington Tubwell Row 1301

If the 30/153 buses connection in Thirsk is missed, Hodgsons 70 departs Thirsk Market Place 1208, arrives Northallerton Buck Inn 1231.
Then Hodgsons 72 departs Northallerton Buck Inn 1430, arrives Darlington Tubwell Row 1521.

From Darlington to York, the earliest direct bus to Northallerton after 0930 is the Hodgsons 72 departing Tubwell Row at 1105, arrives Northallerton Buck Inn 1157
Hodgsons 70 departs Northallerton Buck Inn 1235, arrives Thirsk Market Place 1300.
Coastliner 30X departs Thirsk Market Place 1310, arrives York Station Road 1415

A non-concession holder would need to pay separately for each leg of the journey. Any new York and North Yorkshire plans must at least in rural areas offer better timed connections between services and multi-operator ticketing

 

[darloscott]

ENCTS is valid from 0900 in North Yorkshire along with a number of exceptions on other services - when I ran the 18 our first journey used to leave Stokesley at 0845 if I remember right and accepted concessions.

 

[YorkRailFan]

ENCTS is valid from 0900 in North Yorkshire along with a number of exceptions on other services - when I ran the 18 our first journey used to leave Stokesley at 0845 if I remember right and accepted concessions.

There are a list of exceptions to the 0900 rule for ENCTS. The first 18 now leaves Stokesley at 0915 but is mentioned as accepting ENCTS passes on the North Yorkshire Council website.

Exceptions to the 6am to 9am rule in North Yorkshire and York
18
9.15am
Stokesley and all onward stops to Guisborough
24
7.15am
Pateley Bridge and all onward stops to Harrogate
30
8.30am
Reeth and all onward stops to Richmond
30
8.45am
Alne and all onward stops to York
31X
8.23am
Oswaldkirk and all onward stops to Helmsley
34
8.53am
Middleton Tyas and all onward stops to Scorton
78A
8.38am
From Skipton to Airedale Hospital
80
7.22am
Hutton Rudby and all onward stops to Northallerton
82
8.10am school days

8.29am school holidays

Ripon and all onward stops to York
83
7.40am
Kirby Hill and all onward stops to Ripon
89
8.10am
Northallerton and all onward stops to Stokesley
136
8.12am
Melmerby and all onward stops to Ripon
182
8.17am
Littlethorpe and all onward stops to Knaresborough
194
8.10am
Hovingham and all onward stops to Malton
412
8.40am
Wetherby to York

When and where you can use your bus pass

Find out what times and where you can use your older person's or disabled person's bus pass.

www.northyorks.gov.uk

 

[John HG1]

There are a list of exceptions to the 0900 rule for ENCTS. The first 18 now leaves Stokesley at 0915 but is mentioned as accepting ENCTS passes on the North Yorkshire Council website.

When and where you can use your bus pass

Find out what times and where you can use your older person's or disabled person's bus pass.

www.northyorks.gov.uk

I'm not sure how a service at 9:15 is an exception to a 6am to 9am rule.

 

[Snex]

Bus stations are perhaps the least of North Yorkshire's worries. Having more buses might be a more pressing issue.

Of course, if you're one of those metropolitan types, service headways are usually at a level where a bus station is less of a consideration. You're waiting for less time for your next bus so if you spend 5-10 mins at a bus shelter, that's less of an issue. Not so in the provinces! If your next bus is 30 mins away, you might want some facilities?

The flipside is that you need a set of bus services with sufficient traffic to justify it. There are a few in West Yorkshire like Cleckheaton and Batley where you question whether such a high quality facility is really justified, and there are a number of other places around the UK that are similarly questionable.

The only places in North Yorkshire that I can think of that need anything new are Scarborough (perhaps by getting rid of the former Comet store which is a 1980s eyesore). Harrogate could perhaps do with something a bit better, and Northallerton could do with a larger shelter. Other than that, don't really see many obvious contenders to improve what is currently provided. Oh, and there are ways in which to deal with anti-social behaviour. At Merthyr, the place has 12 stands in the main building but two that are just outside though covered by the canopy. They're used after 1900 when the building is locked up but still offer some shelter from the elements.

You have to add, they take up a huge footprint aswell, so if you're building a new bus station it isn't likely to be right in the centre of town either. Places like Durham, to pick one up here, might have a nice shiny bus station but the walk down North Road at night is grim as an understatement.

Newcastle Haymarket is another one, the area around there at night is secluded and out the way. I'd much rather be on the bus stops at Market Street or Pilgrim Street personally. The whole area just feels unsafe, not helped by junkies everywhere and zero security.

I'm sure there's many other examples the same across the country.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I'm not sure how a service at 9:15 is an exception to a 6am to 9am rule.

The statutory start time is actually 0930. Though individual local authorities can specify/agree an earlier start, and 0900 is not unusual.

 

[John HG1]

The statutory start time is actually 0930. Though individual local authorities can specify/agree an earlier start, and 0900 is not unusual.

But it is not an exception to NYC's rule any more than all the other services departing between 9 and 9:30.

 

[darloscott]

But it is not an exception to NYC's rule any more than all the other services departing between 9 and 9:30.

Yeah I guess someone has updated the departure time on the page without realising it didn’t need an exemption and taking it off.