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Yet another Labour reshuffle

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DarloRich

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Well, your Owen Smith barely had any differences with Jeremy Corbyn over policy!

Policy doesn't really matter. What wins people over is presenting that policy agenda in such a way as to answer the whats in it for me question. The important point is appeal to the middle ground. You know, the people who actually vote. How do you think Corbyn will do that.....................


PS I was given a choice of Smith or Corbyn. I couldn't vote for Corbyn because I consider him a suicidally unelectable clown. That left Smith.
 
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Arglwydd Golau

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Politics isn't actually about policy - we don't live in a technocracy.

But someone who was/is the vice-chairman of an organisation that was almost certainly funded by the KGB is going to do badly with the majority of the electorate. Even before all the talk about his friends in Hezbollah and the IRA. Do you think he has any chance in a General election campaign?

Don't understand your first point.
So Jeremy Corbyn is unelectable because the CPGB received Soviet funds and then donated money to CND? Oh, I see.
 

DarloRich

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Don't understand your first point.

politics is about presentation and message management. Something the evil Alistair Campbell & Peter Mandelson were very good at. No one in the real world cares how nice and "good" the polices are - just how they are presented and how they answer the whats in it for me question.

Corbynians seem to think the essential righteousness of the message will be enough. It isn't.
 

Arglwydd Golau

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politics is about presentation and message management. Something the evil Alistair Campbell & Peter Mandelson were very good at. No one in the real world cares how nice and "good" the polices are - just how they are presented and how they answer the whats in it for me question.

Corbynians seem to think the essential righteousness of the message will be enough. It isn't.

Oh, I see. so you just say something that might be popular (like, say, decent housing for all or scrapping foodbanks) get elected and do the opposite - sounds great!
 

DarloRich

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Oh, I see. so you just say something that might be popular (like, say, decent housing for all or scrapping foodbanks) get elected and do the opposite - sounds great!

:roll: I am saying presentation of your policy to the public is as important, if not more important, than the policy itself.

BTW -I note the same old lefty hatred of winning elections. I mean imagine winning power and being able to help people ;)
 

Arglwydd Golau

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:roll: I am saying presentation of your policy to the public is as important, if not more important, than the policy itself.

BTW -I note the same old lefty hatred of winning elections. I mean imagine winning power and being able to help people ;)

No, it's not a 'lefty' hatred of winning elections. ( I really don't know where you get this from) I might be a bit slow today, but you seem to be saying that Labour's policy should be everything that the media (and the people?) are screaming out for eg chucking out those nasty foreigners, lowering as many Benefits as possible, destroying those horrible trade unions etc etc and then, when elected actually implement a raft of policies that might actually help the underprivileged, the low paid...
 

AlterEgo

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you seem to be saying that Labour's policy should be everything that... the people... are screaming out for...

How do you win an election then, if it's not by having policies people agree with?
 

Arglwydd Golau

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How do you win an election then, if it's not by having policies people agree with?

Yeah, fair question...but what I wouldn't do is shelve all my principles! Is that so wrong? Everything I read says that many Brits blame immigration for today's economic woes (I think that's wrong) just like they blame Gordon Brown for the 2008 crash (wrong again). I'm afraid that if you drip feed the great British public with (step forward Mr Murdoch and pals) half-truths, misconceptions and downright lies to suit their own ends then they will be believed. Just look at the number of people who post on the forum comparing Jeremy Corbyn to some Soviet era apparatchik without any evidence! Another example of this.....remember how the Daily Mail cast Ed Miliband's dad as someone who hated Britain...yet he fought in the Navy in the war, for heavens sake!
 

AlterEgo

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Yeah, fair question...but what I wouldn't do is shelve all my principles! Is that so wrong? Everything I read says that many Brits blame immigration for today's economic woes (I think that's wrong) just like they blame Gordon Brown for the 2008 crash (wrong again). I'm afraid that if you drip feed the great British public with (step forward Mr Murdoch and pals) half-truths, misconceptions and downright lies to suit their own ends then they will be believed. Just look at the number of people who post on the forum comparing Jeremy Corbyn to some Soviet era apparatchik without any evidence! Another example of this.....remember how the Daily Mail cast Ed Miliband's dad as someone who hated Britain...yet he fought in the Navy in the war, for heavens sake!

All very true, but nobody is suggesting you need to become UKIP.

What Labour need to do is appeal to the centre ground. At the moment, they're too purist. Unable to appeal outside their own acolytes. People are being asked to accept socialism, rather than social democracy.
 

Arglwydd Golau

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All very true, but nobody is suggesting you need to become UKIP.

What Labour need to do is appeal to the centre ground. At the moment, they're too purist. Unable to appeal outside their own acolytes. People are being asked to accept socialism, rather than social democracy.

...but I don't understand what the centre ground is! For Labour, is it like being a little like the Tories (but not too much) and for the Tories it is being a little bit like Labour (but not too much)? That way, nothing much changes in our very unequal society and The Establishment are very happy!
 

DarloRich

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Yeah, fair question...but what I wouldn't do is shelve all my principles! Is that so wrong? Everything I read says that many Brits blame immigration for today's economic woes (I think that's wrong) just like they blame Gordon Brown for the 2008 crash (wrong again). I'm afraid that if you drip feed the great British public with (step forward Mr Murdoch and pals) half-truths, misconceptions and downright lies to suit their own ends then they will be believed. Just look at the number of people who post on the forum comparing Jeremy Corbyn to some Soviet era apparatchik without any evidence! Another example of this.....remember how the Daily Mail cast Ed Miliband's dad as someone who hated Britain...yet he fought in the Navy in the war, for heavens sake!

do you want the power to change things that are wrong in society or do you want to stand on the side lines tutting about how awful things are while sipping ethical fair trade camomile tea and eating a gluten free pita and humus. Up to you.

I want a Labour party ready willing and able to assume power to make the changes we need in society. I don't think Corbyn can deliver that and more worryingly i don't think he wants to deliver that. Why? Because principles are more important than winning to him and his supporters.

I think the broad principles of a fairer, more equal and more just society are shared. I simply think that the chances of delivering that are through holding the centre ground and delivering real everyday change that benefits real people rather than some vague & ill defined yet cuddly leftie big bang Corbynians seem to think is just around the corner.

I am not some Tory. I am a long standing Labour member and it pains me immensely to see what Corbyn is doing to us. He will destroy Labour as a serious political force in this country. Everything we have achieved as a party over the years, all the good, all the social change, all the improvements and all the benefits gone in one (now two) orgy of self righteous & deluded self harm. It makes me want to cry with anger.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...but I don't understand what the centre ground is! For Labour, is it like being a little like the Tories (but not too much) and for the Tories it is being a little bit like Labour (but not too much)? That way, nothing much changes in our very unequal society and The Establishment are very happy!

Why are we always blaming shadowy figures and mysterious Machiavellian players rather than admitting that the centre ground is where most of the population ( at least those who vote) are and our polices do not resonate with these people.

We can not win power without winning these people. How is Corbyn going to do that?
 

AlterEgo

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...but I don't understand what the centre ground is! For Labour, is it like being a little like the Tories (but not too much) and for the Tories it is being a little bit like Labour (but not too much)? That way, nothing much changes in our very unequal society and The Establishment are very happy!

Well, the first change to make is to stop talking about the "Establishment"!
 

Arglwydd Golau

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Well, the first change to make is to stop talking about the "Establishment"!

Why?

DarloRich - Without going through the same thing again (which we are in danger of doing here) I know that we both want the same, I know that you are not a Tory but I just don't think that those nice, cuddly Mandelsonian type figures will ever deliver it (and you think the same about the cuddly 'lefties'). So not too much point in going on.
Anyway, I'm off to cook some Mushroom and Chickpea Burgers (no Humous) so I won't be replying for a while!
 

AlterEgo

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Because the "centre ground" don't really believe in the "Establishment" as some sort of exclusive club that's to blame for everything. It has shady connotations and seems kind of paranoid.
 

TheKnightWho

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Because the "centre ground" don't really believe in the "Establishment" as some sort of exclusive club that's to blame for everything. It has shady connotations and seems kind of paranoid.

I've also yet to find anyone who's actually happy regardless of whether Labour or the Tories get in.

It just feels like a legitimised version of the victim complex - blame the Establishment for all your ills, instead of thinking it might be a bit more complicated than that.
 

bb21

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I'd like to like the guy, I really would. But I've reached a stage where pretty slogans are no match for getting your hands grubby and coming out fighting. Corbyn just doesn't seem bothered (and, seems happy to be on the fringes).

Part of me feels that he almost doesn't want to win any elections, as he probably knows that he wouldn't be able to hack it should Labour get in.

Far easier being the opposition shouting pretty slogans.

The Tories were in disarray, and it would probably have been Labour's best chance in the next decade or even more to take advantage, and they just managed to implode spectacularly amidst personal egos and bickering.
 

miami

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The problem with the centre ground is it moves depending on how the media moves it. The solution isn't to change your policies to appeal to the masses, it's to get them to believe in your policies.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The problem with the centre ground is it moves depending on how the media moves it. The solution isn't to change your policies to appeal to the masses, it's to get them to believe in your policies.

You do get to a stage though, ignoring any media input but relying on your own personal intuition, when seems it very hard to understand any logic whatsoever in some of the policies formulated (by Momentum?) and put forward.

Any policy that does not have mass appeal to the masses will be very hard to obtain recognition by the masses.
 
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