Witney by-election

[northwichcat]

Many others were also gullible enough to believe that a vote to remain was a vote for the status quo.

Nothing could be further from the truth as the EU evolves into the United States of Europe. True we have an opt out, cue much sniggering, but the more we opt out the less point there is in remaining in the first place.

So are we going to discuss having a trading relationship with the EU as a non-EU member meaning we'd have to comply with the EU terms but can't influence them?

One problem with the EU vote which does relate to David Cameron (the person who stood down triggering the by-election) is his re-negotiations were an attempt to unite the Conservative party, opposed to being what terms would most benefit our country. If any Labour MP (where it be Corbyn or Kendall) had tried to do what Cameron did the outcome would have been completely different.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-nearly-800bn-a-year-says-study-a6944436.html

I didn't bother using a right wing newspaper as that would have been subject to the usual jibes.

That article doesn't show that the EU is corrupt, it states that there is corruption within individual countries that make up the EU (including, interestingly, the UK). The article doesn't specify what institutions within those countries have corruption (presumably some Government bodies?), but there's nothing in it that shows that there is significant corruption within the EU as an organization.

Also notice the rather loaded way the article starts:

Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia are the most corrupt countries in the EU

This sounds really dramatic - until you remember that unless every country is exactly the same there will always be some country within any group of countries that is the 'most corrupt', even if corruption everywhere is negligible. The picture that comes out of that article if you read it properly is of some corruption within some countries in Europe (which is hardly a surprise - you'll get some corrupt individuals in practically any organization that has lots of employees), but no indication whatsoever that that corruption is directly supported by the EU.

You said the EU is corrupt - which seems to imply that corruption is significant, and actively supported by the EU institutions. That's simply not indicated by the article at all. I therefore think you should withdraw your allegation that the EU is corrupt.

 

[317 forever]

I think it's more likely to be an issue for parents and grandparents, who could finish up financially supporting their children. My Gran was unhappy with the level of financial support John Mayor's government made available to students, never mind Tony Blair's and she didn't live to see the effect of David Cameron as PM.
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I voted Lib Dem in 2010 but for me the big selling point was the raising of the personal allowance to £10,000. I always thought it was ridiculous under Labour that people on low incomes paid income tax one year and then effectively got a refund the following year through Working Tax Credits but only if they did all the paperwork!

Lib Dem manifestos are always quite thorough, which caused an issue when they went in to coalition. They didn't say they'd raise the personal allowance , they said they'd raise it to £10,000 in 2010 and then to £12,500 in 2015. On the other hand Labour said they'd reintroduce the 10p tax rate in 2015 but said no more, so they could have set the 10p threshold at £8,000 and made low earners worse off but kept their manifesto promise!
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Don't forget more people voted Labour in 2015 than in 2010, despite Labour losing large numbers of votes and seats to the SNP. Have Labour ever won enough English & Welsh seats to have around 300+ seats before Scotland is taken in to consideration?

In Cheshire (an area the Conservatives generally do well in) the Conservatives lost the Chester seat to Labour by a slim margin, as well as losing control of Cheshire West council to Labour by a slim margin. They also lost seats to independent candidates for Cheshire East council and then a year later lost the PCC election to the embarrassment of the chief constable who had a speech congratulating the Conservative on re-election prepared but not one congratulating the appointment of a Labour PCC.

In 1997 & 2001 Labour had 56 seats in Scotland and national majorities of 179 & 167 respectively. So, they could have lost their seats to the SNP then and still held office at UK level.
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I think it is because it would be very unreasonable for any party to try to make an electoral gain out of the murder of Jo Cox. The result is that you are denied the opportunity to make a meaningful vote until (probably) 2020, but the same would have happened had she still been alive.

I don't think the LibDems are seriously expecting to be in government but the 48% who voted to remain is bigger than the winning party's vote share in any election of recent history, so well worth targeting. Especially so as it is fully in line with LibDem policy, and no other party seems to be willing to stand up for this group at the moment.

We really don't know what the people who voted for Brexit voted for, because the alternative was never made clear (and could never be under the terms of the vote) so the Leave people made it up on the hoof. If only 1 in 25 of those voting to leave had been misled by this and are now wishing they'd voted the other way, then there is no longer a majority for leaving. At the very least the final deal needs putting to the people again once it is negotiated.

Brexit and the letdown to so many millions of voters who voted Remain could present the LibDems, and also Greens, SNP and maybe Plaid Cymru a good platform for disaffected voters.
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While I supported Remain I don't think you can count people who didn't bother to vote, it's one thing saying that after a General Election when you have a FPTP system and safe seats but another when it's a countrywide two option referendum.

However, it is worth remembering it'll be 2019 before Brexit is implemented and by then some people who voted will have died and people who were 15 at the time of the referendum will be old enough to vote, so given the result was close that might be enough to swing it in the opposite direction!

I feel sorry for young people who will be denied ease of travel, trade etc as a result of people having swung the vote who will no longer even be around by then.

 

[yorksrob]

So are we going to discuss having a trading relationship with the EU as a non-EU member meaning we'd have to comply with the EU terms but can't influence them?

One problem with the EU vote which does relate to David Cameron (the person who stood down triggering the by-election) is his re-negotiations were an attempt to unite the Conservative party, opposed to being what terms would most benefit our country. If any Labour MP (where it be Corbyn or Kendall) had tried to do what Cameron did the outcome would have been completely different.

Extremely good point. The attempted renegotiation should have been a national effort, entailing a discussion between all parties, rather than a Tory wish list.