Why Isn't There a HUD for Train Drivers?

[whhistle]

Coming from the thread about a train "doing 6x speed limit", I was thinking, why have we not impimented some sort of HUD (heads up display) in trains that can count down to important things like signals or TSRs, stations and junctions to assist drivers?

Thinking something similar to what I've seen on Train Simulator screenshots.

Maybe there is something already but I'd suggest the technology already exists so that's not it.

 

[Ianno87]

That's essentially what a driver of a train using ETCS Level 2 sees.

 

[Mag_seven]

Coming from the thread about a train "doing 6x speed limit", I was thinking, why have we not impimented some sort of HUD in trains that can count down to important things like signals or TSRs, stations and junctions to assist drivers?

Thinking something similar to what I've seen on Train Simulator screenshots.

Maybe there is something already but I'd suggest the technology already exists so that's not it.

Before we go any further, please tell us what a "HUD" is!

 

[The_Train]

Before we go any further, please tell us what a "HUD" is!

Keeps the rain off doesn't it?






I'll get my coat with its hood



Back to the actual subject, is this not what the Javelins on HS1 have?

 

[baz962]

Heads up display , isn't ertms like that ?

 

[Mag_seven]

Heads up display , isn't ertms like that ?

Is that what is is? Once again posters put in abbreviations without first stating what they mean.

 

[baz962]

That's what it means , so I guess the poster was alluding to an electronic display in cab . Some systems have in cab signalling

 

[AngusH]

To clarify the discussion a bit, a HUD or "head up display" is a display where the information is shown directly on the windscreen in front of the driver, hence "head up" instead of looking down at a display.

This is usually used in military aircraft as shown here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display#/media/File:Hud_on_the_cat.jpg

But also cars:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display#/media/File:E60hud.JPG


RSSB (uk Rail Safety and Standards Board) did a report on this I think:

https://www.rssb.co.uk/library/research-development-and-innovation/research-brief-T513.pdf

See also this article:

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/train-drivers-look-into-head-up-displays.html

Virgin trains did some simulator testing.


Hope this helps

edit: I'm not aware of any current usage of these type of systems, but would be very pleased to learn of them if they are happening!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

To clarify the discussion a bit, a HUD or "head up display" is a display where the information is shown directly on the windscreen in front of the driver, hence "head up" instead of looking down at a display.

This is usually used in military aircraft as shown here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display#/media/File:Hud_on_the_cat.jpg

But also cars:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display#/media/File:E60hud.JPG


RSSB (uk Rail Safety and Standards Board) did a report on this I think:

https://www.rssb.co.uk/library/research-development-and-innovation/research-brief-T513.pdf

See also this article:

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/train-drivers-look-into-head-up-displays.html

Virgin trains did some simulator testing.


Hope this helps

Interestingly both rail connected reports date back to 2007 with apparently no progress subsequently. I suspect that the financials involved don't stack up sufficiently well to make it viable.

 

[AngusH]

Yes it is odd that there's been nothing since 2007.

I think there's also another longer project report of the same vintage behind RSSB SPARK that I don't have access to.

I think you're right on the costs thing. It probably wasn't seen as providing enough value.

I guess also if they added them then the display would be a safety critical -> "fail the train if it's not working" type of thing.
If it never gets added it can't break down?

 

[Ken H]

Pity SRAWS (Signal repeating AWS) wasnt proceeded with

In the late 1960s, an enhanced form of AWS went on trial between Southampton and Bournemouth. Originally called "Southern Region AWS", its name was later changed to "Signal Repeating AWS". The SRAWS system repeated the next signal's aspect (and displayed a reminder of the previous signal's aspect) on an indication inside the cab. Any aspect other than green had to be acknowledged by the driver pressing the correct button that corresponded to the indication on display. If the driver did not acknowledge the indication, or the wrong button was pressed, an automatic brake application was initiated. The risk of error from subconscious cancellation was therefore greatly diminished.- http://www.railsigns.uk/info/aws1/aws1.html

AWS consists of a permanent magnet that starts the caution indication. This is suppressed by an electro magnet when the signal is clear. SRAWS dispensed with the electro magnet and instead had wires mounted in the 4 foot that transmitted the indication to the train.

 

[whhistle]

Is that what is is? Once again posters put in abbreviations without first stating what they mean.

Yeah, sorry, my bad (now edited).
I thought it was a bit more commonly known

 

[whhistle]

Interestingly both rail connected reports date back to 2007 with apparently no progress subsequently.

This is where the rail industry gets left behind.
There seems to be nobody driving technology as quick as technology drives itself.
10 years later and I bet it'll be easier/cheaper to impliment but "the people" rely on a 10-year old report saying it's not viable :P

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

This is where the rail industry gets left behind.
There seems to be nobody driving technology as quick as technology drives itself.
10 years later and I bet it'll be easier/cheaper to impliment but "the people" rely on a 10-year old report saying it's not viable :P

While I understand the point you are making it could also be the case that in this instance the technology, though potentially useful, is not worth the effort/cost required to install and maintain it. In the modern world there is sometimes a tendency to assume that every technological development needs to be adopted for use in every possible applicable situation. But that isn't completely true: whatever happened to video calls on our mobiles? Some applications prove to be narrow niches which may not be commercially viable. HUD could be fitted to every motor vehicle to allow drivers to confirm their speed without looking away from the road in front of them, and yet...

 

[Indigo Soup]

Pity SRAWS (Signal repeating AWS) wasnt proceeded with


AWS consists of a permanent magnet that starts the caution indication. This is suppressed by an electro magnet when the signal is clear. SRAWS dispensed with the electro magnet and instead had wires mounted in the 4 foot that transmitted the indication to the train.

SRAWS has struck me as really interesting since I found out about it. It isn't the full-dress continuous in-cab signalling system that many railways use - but would it have been sufficient to allow running at speeds above 125mph? Interestingly, I believe many continental European railways regard 100mph as the maximum speed without in-cab signalling.

 

[bionic]

DAS is the railway equivalent of what you are talking about I think. It's part of the "digital railway".

 

[mark-h]

Pity SRAWS (Signal repeating AWS) wasnt proceeded with

Could this have been used as a protection system long before TPWS? The current AWS system only gives a green/not green indication to the train which so is not able to prevent (or emergency brake after) a SPAD. A multiple aspect system should be able to give more protection.