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Why don't we see more side-contact third rail?

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doorhanger93

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This isn't speculative so much into the future as into the past, but I'm curious why side-contact hasn't seen more adoption. All I can name is the old Manchester-Bury line and the Hamburg S-Bahn, both operating apparently safely at the high DC voltage of 1.2kV, with the associated better efficiency and incline performance. Between top and bottom contact, it seems to be the best of both worlds. It can be built as rugged and easy (and cheaply?) as top-contact (i.e supported from the bottom rather than hung from above), and it doesn't even seem to be all that difficult to retrofit top-contact to side-contact, an advantage for any kind of standardisation in historically mixed areas with competing systems. It can also be insulated on three sides easily simply by affixing covers more or less directly to the rail - Bury supposedly used wooden boards, Hamburg uses plastic covers - and you still get all the weather and debris advantages of bottom contact. If anything there's probably less chance of something contacting the inner side of the rail, likely overhung by covers, than something getting under the third rail of a bottom-contact system. At the very least, both the Germans and the L&YR independently deemed it fit for a relatively higher voltage.
Obviously it's hardly much of a step-change in terms of the deep inherent issues of CRE, but still, what's the catch here? Are there any drawbacks I'm not noticing? Are there any other SCCRE systems out there? What if the L&YR system had greater adoption in the UK?

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If anyone has any info on side-contact I'd be interested.
 
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TSG

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I don't know the answer to this but a few thoughts occur, possibly born of ignorance :)

I'd suspect that it is partly historical accident where top contact was tried first and spread because they'd got it working (kind of like standard gauge, more arbitrary than engineering optimisation).

You may get more issues with gauging. Top contact shoes spring down into the space where a third rail would be anyway. To spring against a side contact rail, the side contact shoes probably rest wider on both sides, and may need some electrical clearance on top of physical clearance depending on the details. Might be a crowded place down there with shunting signals, bridge parapets and what not (accepted this might not matter much for a new build, but it makes retrofit more costly than top contact perhaps)

Although I can see the safety advantages to those working on the line, bear in mind usually if one shoe is live all shoes are live, so the above feature could present a greater hazard to those working around trains such as traincrew/shunters etc.

I'm not sure your presumption that it could be simultaneously as rugged and as cheap holds either. The force of the top contact shoe acts (mostly) in opposition to the supporting structure. Seems to me you would need a stronger structure (i.e. more material, perhaps more frequently, thus more costly) to hold a rail against a sideways force when its mounted on the sleeper below.

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One other thing occurs. You may need more tolerance to vertical movement of the side contact shoe than the top contact shoe needs tolerance of lateral movement (think about suspension having more vertical movement than lateral and a train’s weight acting on vertical alignment). A taller rail has implications for cost and perhaps safety and gauging. A taller shoe may worsen the safety risks to those around the train, but increased mass could mean more problems keeping the shoe in contact as speed increases too.
 
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edwin_m

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The shoegear for top and side contact is likely to occupy the same space envelope, so a train capable of using either system would probably require both sets of shoegear to be retractable. So once a top contact system is in use, extending or converting it with side contact becomes very complicated. Similar would apply to bottom contact.
 

Bletchleyite

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From underneath You mean? Modern version of the wooden board, but taller?

Yep, obviously with drain holes. You'd have to willingly stand on top of one to get zapped by the top, I'd think most zappings were from inadvertent contact with the side while stepping over.
 

TSG

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This sort of thing seems to be often suggested when discussing third rail. Apart from the maintenance burden of adding all that, it prevents use of the short circuit bar to effect an emergency isolation and would complicate negative strapping for engineering work.
 

doorhanger93

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I'd suspect that it is partly historical accident where top contact was tried first and spread because they'd got it working (kind of like standard gauge, more arbitrary than engineering optimisation).
Obviously this is why there's no real adoption, but CRE systems tend to be an idiosyncratic bunch, and, especially for something so oft-quoted as a fully-fledged type of CRE, you'd think there'd be at least be a few systems built over time.

You may get more issues with gauging. Top contact shoes spring down into the space where a third rail would be anyway. To spring against a side contact rail, the side contact shoes probably rest wider on both sides, and may need some electrical clearance on top of physical clearance depending on the details.
I suppose if this could ever be an issue it'd be an issue on the British loading gauge, but given a difference of maybe inches at most, I wouldn't see it being too much of an problem in the outside world.

Although I can see the safety advantages to those working on the line, bear in mind usually if one shoe is live all shoes are live, so the above feature could present a greater hazard to those working around trains such as traincrew/shunters etc.
A good point, but a shoe is easier to avoid than a rail, and we're again talking about a few extra inches of clearance.

Seems to me you would need a stronger structure (i.e. more material, perhaps more frequently, thus more costly) to hold a rail against a sideways force when its mounted on the sleeper below.
I did think of the issue of lateral loads, but i figure it's not going to be much relative to a 3rd rail held fairly securely in place, since it only has to hold as much force as you need to hold the shoe flat; plus bottom contact also technically requires lateral some measure of lateral bracing just to hold it up with the "reach-around" supports. Perhaps though there is value in simply eliminating lateral forces as an engineering constraint, even if it's slightly more complicated as per bottom contact.

The shoegear for top and side contact is likely to occupy the same space envelope, so a train capable of using either system would probably require both sets of shoegear to be retractable. So once a top contact system is in use, extending or converting it with side contact becomes very complicated. Similar would apply to bottom contact.
This is true, but i was talking the ability of the rail to be retrofitted between top and side operation relatively easily, at least not much more difficult than a modernisation overhaul, specifically because they occupy the same space envelope. You couldn't have through running during the overhaul, but it'd make sense as something to bring nearby systems into interoperability, and this happened on the Bury line in 1918, the route to Holcome Brook was apparently electrified with 3.5kV DC OHE until being converted to the side-contact third rail, which must have been even harder. They used to do this kind of thing all the time back in the day, swapping between electrification systems.

You could presumably get most of the benefit from shielding top contact in U shaped plastic troughs?
Oh you could, but people have still built bottom-contact systems in recent years, so there's something there. The main advantage I can think of is weather protection, as ice and debris doesn't tend to accumulate on the side or bottom of the rail. This is one of the main reasons non-top-contact systems were built in the olde days, and is also one of the reasons why modern top-contact insulation generally arches over the top of rail, leaving a gap for the shoe but still covering the top. Still though, as I said, bottom contact seems to be the vogue of more recent years over insulated top-contact, so there's something there. Perhaps it's the possibility for debris to accumulate under this cover? In that respect, side-contact can't suffer from debris getting trapped *under* the rail either, although I imagine that's more than quite rare, apparently bottom-contact can become vulnerable to snow accumulation. Plus, side contact doesn't need troughs and arched covers with drainage requirements, and which would probably accumulate debris, just covers affixed to the top and outer surfaces with small overhangs for effectively the same level of insulation, so long as you don't get between the running rail and the inner contact surface while the rail is live, which is about as easy as not standing on the top of the thing as a workman and much better for foreign objects both human and animal.

This sort of thing seems to be often suggested when discussing third rail. Apart from the maintenance burden of adding all that, it prevents use of the short circuit bar to effect an emergency isolation and would complicate negative strapping for engineering work.
I'm no third rail engineer, but I feel side-contact would be no more difficult in these respects than bottom contact, at least.

Overall I'd think that side-contact just seems to be a slightly simpler version of bottom contact, at least the idea you'd come up with first, so I feel it must have some disadvantage relative to the latter.
One extra problem I've thought of which hasn't quite been brought up is tolerances. The bogies that carry the shoes tend to move more side-to-side than they do up and down, which probably makes it more finicky to maintain contact with the side of the rail than the top or bottom. The Bury line was a sparky *******, for sure, although the German system doesn't seem to suffer here, so perhaps it's not too much of an issue, although maybe it was an extra cost in construction for them.
Also, perhaps we're getting it all wrong; perhaps bottom-contact is just cheaper, even than top contact, with our modern engineering techniques?
 
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swt_passenger

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IIRC (without searching) previous discussions found that the manufacturer of the typical bottom contact system (as per DLR), only advertised a max speed capability of 50 mph; in which case it wouldn’t be acceptable on the wider network.
 

doorhanger93

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IIRC (without searching) previous discussions found that the manufacturer of the typical bottom contact system (as per DLR), only advertised a max speed capability of 50 mph; in which case it wouldn’t be acceptable on the wider network.
China has various bottom-contact metro lines at 1.5kV that IIRC can go faster than that. Still, bottom-contact having a speed limit does strengthen this hypothetical case for side-contact, unless the same problem applies. If I'm honest, I'm not sure what the mechanism is that limits speeds on bottom-contact, other than just being built for metro and light rail systems with frequent stops.
 

edwin_m

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This is true, but i was talking the ability of the rail to be retrofitted between top and side operation relatively easily, at least not much more difficult than a modernisation overhaul, specifically because they occupy the same space envelope. You couldn't have through running during the overhaul, but it'd make sense as something to bring nearby systems into interoperability, and this happened on the Bury line in 1918, the route to Holcome Brook was apparently electrified with 3.5kV DC OHE until being converted to the side-contact third rail, which must have been even harder. They used to do this kind of thing all the time back in the day, swapping between electrification systems.
Doing the rail would be straightforward but it can't be divorced from the logistics of keeping a service running during the programme. A section of route would have to be blockaded completely between two places where trains can terminate, and service reduced on the sections beyond if there wasn't enough capacity to turn back the full service. And while the turnback station was being converted an even longer section would need to close. There are also complications with making sure both types of train are still able to access a depot at all stages of the programme.

Conversion between third rail and OLE is much simpler because the two don't occupy the same space. So the new system can be installed under whatever possession strategy works best, and cut over in a relatively short blockade, and trains can switch between systems on the fly. A little more complicated if it's also converting between DC and AC as the earthing is different, but I imagine the relevant bonds could be prepared beforehand and dis/connected during the cutover.

On a related note, I believe the rubber tyred Metro routes in Paris and a few other places collect power from rails which also provide lateral guidance. I'm not sure if this counts as side contact, and I'm not suggesting this technology is an optimal solution to any problem...
 
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HSTEd

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Ultimately, because someone made a choice not to use side contact 100+ years ago.

Too late to do anything now.
 

Trackman

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China has various bottom-contact metro lines at 1.5kV that IIRC can go faster than that. Still, bottom-contact having a speed limit does strengthen this hypothetical case for side-contact, unless the same problem applies. If I'm honest, I'm not sure what the mechanism is that limits speeds on bottom-contact, other than just being built for metro and light rail systems with frequent stops.
It's how it handles gaps/changing rail so the shoe design and possibility the ramp design would be the issue.
I suppose the DLR had a design speed set, so the shoe/ramp specs were built to that.
 

HSTEd

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It's how it handles gaps/changing rail so the shoe design and possibility the ramp design would be the issue.
I suppose the DLR had a design speed set, so the shoe/ramp specs were built to that.

Well Metro-North in the US operates at up to 79mph with bottom-contact third rail, and supposedly designed rolling stock good for 100mph.

I don't think there is any fundamental limit on the speed beyond those of top contact.

Your ramps will just get longer and longer and longer.
 

doorhanger93

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This one's been stuck in approval, so attempting a repost
Trackman said:
It's how it handles gaps/changing rail so the shoe design and possibility the ramp design would be the issue.
I suppose the DLR had a design speed set, so the shoe/ramp specs were built to that.
HSTEd said:
Well Metro-North in the US operates at up to 79mph with bottom-contact third rail, and supposedly designed rolling stock good for 100mph.

I don't think there is any fundamental limit on the speed beyond those of top contact.

Your ramps will just get longer and longer and longer.
Yeah, that's what I suspected

edwin_m said:
Conversion between third rail and OLE is much simpler because the two don't occupy the same space. So the new system can be installed under whatever possession strategy works best, and cut over in a relatively short blockade, and trains can switch between systems on the fly.
For sure, but stopping a line and replacing parts was absolutely on the cards in the old days, especially to replace something quite old for a conversion that wouldn't take too much time, and this was more of an offhand point about back then. It's not something you'd ever do now, obviously, but it's not a problem that applies to newbuilds.

HSTEd said:
Ultimately, because someone made a choice not to use side contact 100+ years ago.

Too late to do anything now.
That's acting like CRE is in any way standardised and fixed in the past. Maybe that explains why, say, the Southern Region doesn't use it, but the Bury line was only taken down to build the metrolink, and the Hamburg system is still operating. And there's plenty of modern bottom-contact systems like the 1.5kV systems in China, sdo it's really not like some people arbitrarily decided to use 750V DC top-contact a century ago and that's all anyone's had since. I said before, this is the obvious reason there's no large scale adoption on main lines but CRE generally isn't adopted large scale on main lines anyway. I'm not really saying we should do anything now, especially since OHE is encroaching even on the underground metro market, more just asking if anyone knows more detail about side-contact and why it's so rare.
 
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