Why doesn't NR just cut the trees down?

[bluenoxid]

Depends on vegetation and tree type as well as soil type. What works in clay soils would not be advisable in sandy soils. All comes down to land and shrubbery management.

Unfortunately, this costs money to keep an eye on with little benefit, whilst throwing a few soil nails in gives a good feeling of money well spent.

 

[boing_uk]

Was travelling on the Hope Valley line on Friday and I was perturbed by a few things while gazing out the window on the uncomfortable 185 seat.

One thing was the steepness of the railway embankments in places, with LOTS of heavy foliage and very little in the way of cess in places. Some places its literally ballast shoulder and then drop off, with very heavy foliage in the majority of cases.

The other was the huge number of large ancient landslips. They are not readily obvious without knowing what to look for, but the the area with the trees in the very centre of this picture are two fairly sizable slips and there is evidence all along that particular section where the land has moved at times in the past. In fact, just one click to the left reveals a ridge in the centre of the picture, which again is a past land slip. My immediate thoughts were "I wonder if this has been noted by NR", given the propensity for non-local knowledge engineering expertise.

 

[Old Timer]

After years of ignoring structures such as bridges, embankments, cuttings and tunnels, Network Rail has sustained a number of wake up calls since about 2007, and are taking action - helped greatly by the interest (for once) from the various Statutory bodies such as ORR and RAIB.

The penny has finally dropped within Netowrk Rail that they need to inspect and manage their structures, and in particular take control of track drainage, which has been left for many years.

The business to be in, for the next few years at least will be structures and drainage - Trust me on this

 

[boing_uk]

After years of ignoring structures such as bridges, embankments, cuttings and tunnels, Network Rail has sustained a number of wake up calls since about 2007, and are taking action - helped greatly by the interest (for once) from the various Statutory bodies such as ORR and RAIB.

The penny has finally dropped within Netowrk Rail that they need to inspect and manage their structures, and in particular take control of track drainage, which has been left for many years.

The business to be in, for the next few years at least will be structures and drainage - Trust me on this

Will they also be taking an interest in the geological features which are OFF NR land as well? I very much hope this is the case.

 

[networkrail1]

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but can people please stop calling Network Rail by stupid names, it really annoys me, yes we make some bad choices and make some bad mistakes, but there is just no need for it.

The company name is Network Rail not Nitwit Fail or Notwork Fail ect.

Rant over.

All the best.

Simon

 

[boing_uk]

yes we make some bad choices and make some bad mistakes, but there is just no need for it.

The company name is Network Rail not Nitwit Fail or Notwork Fail ect.

If an organisation responsible for the safe and cost efficient running of the railway is as crap as NR have been, especially when its so easy not to be and repeatedly doesnt learn from its mistakes or even consider wider aspects of incidents and accidents and apply those thought processes to other areas of its business it really should expect to be ridiculed. It is not as though it is even non-industry people criticising NR; it is people who have/had direct dealings with the organisation... surely that speaks volumes in itself.

 

[The Snap]

In your experience, how many of those drains damaged via direct penetration of roots were in a poor condition to start with? I know there is contradicting research, but a lot of what I have read suggests that roots will only directly penetrate a drain where there is a leaking/failed joint; in this case the roots, being hydrotropic, grow along the moisture gradient and enter the drain run via the leaking joint to proliferate once inside, subject to oxygen levels being sufficient. An answer that has been suggested is to line trenches with non-woven geotextiles (Terram) which acts as a root barrier, although this is only any good on new installations obviously.

But yes you're quite right, tree root damage to drains can be as a result of lateral forces from the wind acting on the crown being translated via the roots onto the pipe. Claus Mattheck has researched this extensively, many of the findings can be found in 'Tree Roots in the Built Environment', which I recommend as a very good read on this subject. And there is indirect damage in shrinkable clays as a result of tree-related soil drying leading to soil movement.

To be fair you're probably right - the drains I've seen have been in a very poor condition generally, and not just through ingress of roots. Particularly with channel drains which are left open jointed to allow for easier water flow into them, roots essentially have unrestricted access into them. Like you say, those species that 'follow the water' (the non-scientific way of putting it ) will grow into the drains and damage them. I know we are using Terram at the moment in several of our earthworks structures and as a textile for the track sub-grade I believe (or at least something similar). I've not heard of it being used in drains through - it's a good idea in theory really!

Some trees (e.g., poplar, willow, cherry) but not all species by any means. And while I agree that Knotweed can cause extensive damage to structures/hard surfaces, surely in the case of an earth embankment the (extensive) root system will help to bind the soil horizons together, preventing shear/slump? (Not that I'm advocating retaining Japanese Knotweed on embankments, because of its hugely detrimental effect on biodiversity).

Well this is the argument. On the one side, root systems act as a structural binding holding the earthwork together (and absorbing water reducing the chance of slip), but on the flip side, they can damage the embankment by destabilising it. Without reading too far into it, I'd be inclined to go with the former (which kind of contradicts what I originally said here ).

The chemical mostly used is glyphosate (which you can buy in the garden centre as Round Up), which doesn't burn the skin. If a contractor is using something else that burns the skin, then they really need to revisit their COSHH assessment!

I am not aware of the name of the chemical used, I just heard it was pretty corrosive. I'm not at all suggesting we are breeching our COSHH obligations! Whether it burns the skin or not, I wouldn't fancy trying it out...

You're right though, stem injection is hugely time consuming and not always effective at 'first strike' (speaking from experience here).

This is what I've experienced; I understand our Knotweed areas have been sprayed and injected several times in the last 18 months and it just isn't disappearing!

Do NR not allow any live line cutting? In theory it's perfectly possible, as all the electricity companies allow it (with the exception of National Grid - 400 and 275kV is too high a voltage) using insulated rods and/or cutting from a cherry picker using insulated tools and suitable PPE, depending on the voltage. (I suppose though that if treework on the railway requires a possession, you may as well have a current isolation too, much less hassle than that associated with a DNO taking 100s of customers off supply for a power outage)

I had a presentation from an Engineer at NR regarding lineside vegetation and the like. From what he was implying, it would be unsafe to fell trees while working next to live OHLE in case branches fall in the wrong direction and rip down the wires.

According to NR/L3/MTC/RCS0216/OT13:

General felling:
- All work using mechanized tools on or near the line shall be undertaken in a Green Zone

Felling near Live OLE:
- Advise ECR about close proximity tree felling/vegetation clearance before work commences
- Where there is a risk of debris from vegetation clearance falling within 2.75 meters (nine feet) of live OLE then these lines shall be isolated and earthed and a Form C issued prior to work commencing
- If it is a return conductor that is of concern this shall be earthed and an RC permit issued without the need for a full isolation
- A site specific assessment shall be undertaken

 

[jon0844]

I presume on the ECML leaf blowing is banned in case that also brings down the lines? Or indeed in case a member of staff coughs.

 

[michael769]

This is what I've experienced; I understand our Knotweed areas have been sprayed and injected several times in the last 18 months and it just isn't disappearing!

Speaking as a horticulturalist - the problem with injection is that it is very difficult to get the doses correct, and if you use too weak a dose there is a high risk of the plants developing resistance. Resistance is now a very real problem in some parts of the country.

Spraying is much more reliable, but even then - if it rains (or you even get a heavy dew) within 6 hours it will be washed off and be less effective. And of course spraying will also take out all the other vegetation which effectively clears the ground of competition ready for the next batch to come up from seed. There is an old gardening saying "one years seed - seven years weed", which very much applies when trying to eradicate invasive weeds like knotweed.

 

[Trog]

Speaking as a horticulturalist - There is an old gardening saying "one years seed - seven years weed", which very much applies when trying to eradicate invasive weeds like knotweed.

But not Japanese knotweed its self as I believe all the plants in this country are of one sex, so it never sets seed. Except for rare hybrids with something else (I forget what) that tend to be rather weak and sickly even if they do germinate.

 

[ACE1888]

Classic example of 'lack of vegetation management' down Pz way, the station wall remains overgrown on the rail side but has been cleared (poorly i may add) on the path side, by the Council or whoever is responsible for that side of the wall

 

[Noguidedbus]

Don't worry folks, under Cameron's big society teams of volunteers will soon be seen the length and breadth of the land sorting this out!

They're just practising with shop windows in London first. Got to get your hammer and axe technique up to scratch, haven't you?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But not Japanese knotweed its self as I believe all the plants in this country are of one sex, so it never sets seed. Except for rare hybrids with something else (I forget what) that tend to be rather weak and sickly even if they do germinate.

It's all about shagging, isn't it?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Spraying is much more reliable, but even then - if it rains (or you even get a heavy dew) within 6 hours it will be washed off and be less effective. And of course spraying will also take out all the other vegetation which effectively clears the ground of competition ready for the next batch to come up from seed. There is an old gardening saying "one years seed - seven years weed", which very much applies when trying to eradicate invasive weeds like knotweed.

I was talking to the specialist visiting National Trust team, last week, who are working on the Japanese Knotweed problem on the banks of the River Bollin at Quarry Bank Mill. They have been using a spray system on the area where the river passes the side of the Secret Garden and they quoted exactly what you have said above. They have a similar problem with another species in the area where they had hoped to re-open the old orchard in the newly acquired area at the top of the site, but this is roped off and a large notice displayed to inform visitors of the problem and the plans to eventually bring the problem under control.

The National Trust, being a large national organization, have many horticulturalists on their books and could well share their knowledge and experiance with National Rail if requested. I am sure that Kew Gardens would also participate in such a scheme, with their vast knowledge of horticulture.

 

[DarloRich]

I think Network Rail already know quite a bit about our friendly local japanese Knotweed! Millions have been spent year on year trying to kill it off.

The best way to get rid of it is FIRE. Burn off the plant, treat the roots and pull them out. It is still a massive job which requires repeated applicagtions of chemicals . However fire isnt often allowed

The other way is to treat the plant with a glyphosate based herbicide but it will take applications over 2 or 3 years to kill the plant off. Then you have to try and make sure all the roots are dead or it will just come back. You cant fail or mow it becuase this will just speread the problem! You cant even reuse the soil from a site contaminated with bloody knotweed becuase you will just spread the rhizome. The soil has to be burried at landfill at a depth of 5ms!

it is nasty stuff that wont bloody die!

 

[142094]

I've been told that a piece of rhizome about the size of a grain of cooked rice is enough for the knotweed to regenerate from. The only real solution is to excavate and get rid of it. Not good if you are a developer and find it on your building site...

 

[DarloRich]

I've been told that a piece of rhizome about the size of a grain of cooked rice is enough for the knotweed to regenerate from. The only real solution is to excavate and get rid of it. Not good if you are a developer and find it on your building site...

Correct. It is a very big problem if you find it on your site. It is like the Damien. It wont die

 

[Greenback]

Japanese knotwed is a massive problem in Swansea. The council used ot be very proactive ind ealing with it and employed a specialist consultant. Not sure if they still do, he's probably been made redundant due to the cuts.

 

[LexyBoy]

The young shoots are quite tasty steamed apparently

There is currently a trial of a biological control, a knotweed-eating insect, which is the first time such a deliberate release has been allowed in the EU. If all goes well (i.e. it doesn't devour our native plantlife once it's finished the knotweed), then it'll be released to sort out the knotweed problem. It won't be a permanent solution, but it should keep it under control, so no worse than other weeds...

PS: Greenback - you're looking a bit more sinister lately

 

[Greenback]

The young shoots are quite tasty steamed apparently

There is currently a trial of a biological control, a knotweed-eating insect, which is the first time such a deliberate release has been allowed in the EU. If all goes well (i.e. it doesn't devour our native plantlife once it's finished the knotweed), then it'll be released to sort out the knotweed problem. It won't be a permanent solution, but it should keep it under control, so no worse than other weeds...

PS: Greenback - you're looking a bit more sinister lately

Smart, I thought, but you may have a point...!

The knotweed was introduced originally as a decorative or ornamental plant, I believe. I hope that the insect does not prove to be troublesome in the future - no one had any idea of the consequences of the knotweed! Still, I suppose that's why it's a trial!

Back to the topic, does anyone know how much knotweed ther eis in railway cuttings and embankments? Being as ther eis quite a bit around Landore in Swansea, how far has it encroached on to railway land across the UK?

 

[DarloRich]

The young shoots are quite tasty steamed apparently

There is currently a trial of a biological control, a knotweed-eating insect, which is the first time such a deliberate release has been allowed in the EU. If all goes well (i.e. it doesn't devour our native plantlife once it's finished the knotweed), then it'll be released to sort out the knotweed problem. It won't be a permanent solution, but it should keep it under control, so no worse than other weeds...

PS: Greenback - you're looking a bit more sinister lately

the problem you have with that is what happens if the insect you introduce likes native plants more!

 

[142094]

the problem you have with that is what happens if the insect you introduce likes native plants more!

Exactly - although I suspect that there'll have to be stringent tests before they are allowed to be used.

There is also a problem that some people are confused between bindweed and knotweed, which look similar, so it might not be reported as often as it should.

 

[michael769]

The knotweed was introduced originally as a decorative or ornamental plant, I believe. I hope that the insect does not prove to be troublesome in the future - no one had any idea of the consequences of the knotweed!

Indeed the record of using alien species for biological control has a grim history. But one would hope the lessons have been learnt.

Still, I suppose that's why it's a trial!

Problem is if the new species turns out to prefer our natives to knotweed it will be very difficult to prevent it spreading beyond the experimental area and out of control (the grim history I alluded to above).

 

[LexyBoy]

I think the lessons have been learned, which is why it has taken so long for research to reach the stage of actually releasing any new organisms.

I don't know the details, but usually in this sort of case a release is only approved if there is something tying the "predator" and "prey" species together, e.g. their life cycles coincide (with other species being at a different time). At the moment, the knotweed isn't in a sustainable ecological condition, as it has no competition.

Consider crops - they are much more vulnerable to pests than the same species growing "naturally", i.e. amongst mixed vegetation, because once a pest gets in they have an unlimited food supply. Those pests, which would go unnoticed normally, can then reach plague-like proportions if not controlled. Knotweed is in the same situation at the moment, but the pest hasn't yet been introduced.

It's worth also remembering that whilst there have been many terrible examples of alien species or diseases being introduced, there are also success stories - for example the moth introduced to control Opuntia cactus in Australia, which was making huge areas completely inaccessible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Back to the topic, does anyone know how much knotweed ther eis in railway cuttings and embankments? Being as ther eis quite a bit around Landore in Swansea, how far has it encroached on to railway land across the UK?

A lot I'd think! It's certainly springing up through the pavement all the way along Power Station Road in Didcot. It's worst in the SW (whence it originally spread), but since it gains a foothold so easily it gets everywhere. As it roots easily from small broken off parts, it spreads rapidly along canals (which of course frequently traverse railways), and similarly from bits of mud on vehicles driving along railside paths.