Why aren't 'Placement'/'Dead Mileage' trips more common

[Zamracene749]

Whilst it's probably not worth the bother registering and building in timetables for early morning placement moves, perhaps there is some potential for evening 'last runs home to the depot' type services. Years ago, a service local to me completed it's 8 mile run to the depot as 'runs direct to depot set down only at any stop en route'. Basically dispensing with a timetable, this type of run could provide a later last bus home without the company incurring any time/mileage expenses? Would that still be legal? Certainly in County Durham, where sunday services generally finish around 6pm this could prove useful!

 

[Contains Nuts]

Whilst it's probably not worth the bother registering and building in timetables for early morning placement moves, perhaps there is some potential for evening 'last runs home to the depot' type services. Years ago, a service local to me completed it's 8 mile run to the depot as 'runs direct to depot set down only at any stop en route'. Basically dispensing with a timetable, this type of run could provide a later last bus home without the company incurring any time/mileage expenses? Would that still be legal? Certainly in County Durham, where sunday services generally finish around 6pm this could prove useful!

It is legal to run a ‘set-down only’ journey but it would not be eligible for Bus Service Operator’s Grant, whereas running dead would be eligible. Viability would depend on whether passenger revenue would be be more than the amount the grant pays for the distance travelled.

 

[markymark2000]

It is legal to run a ‘set-down only’ journey but it would not be eligible for Bus Service Operator’s Grant, whereas running dead would be eligible. Viability would depend on whether passenger revenue would be be more than the amount the grant pays for the distance travelled.

It could however run as a normal service (pick up and drop off) and be eligible for BSOG right?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Or is it just a few areas have thought about these things.

Winsford to Crewe 15 minutes/4 miles would be recouped a lot easier than some of the other dead mileage routes which run. There are variables and as i've consistently said, it would have to be a case by case basis. I do believe though that there are a number of cases where dead mileage trip should be put in, especially where the trip runs at a time or near a place which have demand.

Clearly Arriva Cymru have thought about it, and it's evident that Arriva NW have in the case of starting one of the 6 services from Leighton. Transdev run the 22's back from Ripon to Boroughbridge and to York whilst omitting the villages that demand a diversion. Arriva North East in Darlington do so with the Faverdale extensions. First South West has already explained their thinking. Stagecoach West do so with services from Stroud. Arriva Midlands start the first bus from Telford to Stafford from Newport as it's close to the depot, and run the late 576 back fast to Oswestry via the A5. Lots of different firms showing that they do it. You've worked for bus companies.... you know the reasons why it happens or doesn't

Whilst it's probably not worth the bother registering and building in timetables for early morning placement moves, perhaps there is some potential for evening 'last runs home to the depot' type services. Years ago, a service local to me completed it's 8 mile run to the depot as 'runs direct to depot set down only at any stop en route'. Basically dispensing with a timetable, this type of run could provide a later last bus home without the company incurring any time/mileage expenses? Would that still be legal? Certainly in County Durham, where sunday services generally finish around 6pm this could prove useful!

I think it happens where it's appropriate.

Take the service 1 in Darlington to Bishop/Tow Law. They run everything back to Darlington but on a Sunday morning, they send a vehicle light to Bishop. Do they send it via Heighington and Shildon, or send it direct on the A6072 to St Helens Auckland and save 5/10 mins? And it's about 15 mins ahead of the main service car. Or the last X46 to Crook - the last one is 2255 but they could have a 2355 though doubt it could pay

 

[tbtc]

There are a few examples of this

1990s Lothian used to run a 68 from Portobello to Mayfield in Midlothian that didn't seem to serve any purpose (I think about three journeys a day, early morning to Mayfield, returns from Mayfield in the early evening)... but the timings matched up with the express service from Mayfield into Edinburgh and back again later in the day - current Lothian are quite good at contra-peak services, but the nature of Edinburgh (where the city centre is so expensive that lots of offices etc are on the fringe of the city) suits those kind of routes

Here in Sheffield the southern end of the 20 is a bit of a "two side of a triangle" service (looping back from Graves Park to serve the Gleadless Valley (finishing at a classic post-war housing scheme turning circle with pub/ Chemist/ "convenience" shop - the Gleadless Valley is so untouched by the twenty first century that it's the filming location for some of Channel 4's "This Is England" programmes, set in the 1980s) - but the early morning journeys run from Olive Grove depot out of town up the Gleadless Valley rather than not in service. It's a different thing in the evening, partly because there are more buses on the road generally, partly also because it'd be more confusing to have Olive Grove as a terminus?

Stocksbridge features on railway threads from time to time - the town is about ten miles outside Sheffield - in the South Yorkshire Transport days the early/late Stocksbridge services started/finished at Catch Bar Lane, by the Sheffield Wednesday ground, because the service was operated from Herries depot. The move to one big depot in Sheffield (Olive Grove) meant services running all the way to/from the city centre.

Stagecoach took the services over from First around ten years ago - the service operated from their Ecclesfield depot, which is about as close to Stocksbridge as it is to central Sheffield (given the speed of the Stocksbridge by-pass, it's probably closer). They ditched the early/late journeys. That means we have the situation where First have the tender for early/late/Sunday services. There are three trips in the morning that arrive at the Stocksbridge terminus at 05:48, 06:48 and 07:48 (the first Stagecoach service arrives at the terminus at 08:08). But the tender only requires First to run journeys from Stocksbridge back to Sheffield at 05:50 and 06:50. There are Stagecoach services starting at Stocksbridge at 06:06 and 07:02 (before the 08:10, formed by the 08:08 arrival).

So First are paid by the PTE to run the service arriving into Stocksbridge at 07:48 which runs empty back down the Don Valley into Sheffield just ahead of the commercially operated 08:10. Looking at Bustimes today, the vehicle then formed the 08:30 service from Sheffield Interchange out to Tinsley (https://bustimes.org/vehicles/246676?date=2022-02-18#journeys/221730774 << link shows the X74 from Sheffield to Tinsley)

It makes sense to someone but we have a situation where Stagecoach only register the journeys that they can operate at a profit, but the PTE want a proper service in both directions, so First run a tendered service up the valley to get in at 07:48 but then it has to run empty back into Sheffield at rush hour because Stagecoach are running their commercial service down the valley at that time (i.e. Stagecoach run empty to Stocksbridge to then run commercially into Sheffield, so taxpayers fund First running a service to Stocksbridge which then runs empty back down the hill)... it's maybe only a minor thing but it feels a wasteful example of our fragmented bus industry, where each party is doing what's best for them (I'm not saying that Stagecoach should run early morning contra-peak services at their own cost, I'm not blaming First for taking the subsidy, I'm not blaming the PTE for wanting to try to give Stocksbridge a proper service in both directions, but the combination of everyone acting in their own interests means we essentially have one operator running empty in one direction because the other operator is running empty in the other direction, and First are running an empty double decker into central Sheffield for half past eight in the morning when passengers struggle for seats in the morning rush hour on other services)

The Tinsley service I mentioned above (which the First double decker runs onto) is another contra-peak service - First closing the Midland Road depot in Rotherham has forced/encouraged them to be creative with the amount of dead mileage that comes with operating all Rotherham services from depots in Sheffield/ Doncaster. So the X74 is a contra-peak service from Sheffield city centre to the Parkway Industrial Estate and then the Advanced Manufacturing Park etc at Tinsley - https://bustimes.org/services/x74-sheffield-rotherham - rather than running everything empty from Sheffield to Rotherham you can be creative with the diagrams - even if it only picks up a handful of passengers it may be cost effective

Does Bristol still have the 53 (?) for placing journeys between the depot at Temple Meads?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Does Bristol still have the 53 (?) for placing journeys between the depot at Temple Meads?

No, the 53/54 no longer run. There's a regular 93 service from Hengrove depot into the city

 

[markymark2000]

Clearly Arriva Cymru have thought about it, and it's evident that Arriva NW have in the case of starting one of the 6 services from Leighton. Transdev run the 22's back from Ripon to Boroughbridge and to York whilst omitting the villages that demand a diversion. Arriva North East in Darlington do so with the Faverdale extensions. First South West has already explained their thinking. Stagecoach West do so with services from Stroud. Arriva Midlands start the first bus from Telford to Stafford from Newport as it's close to the depot, and run the late 576 back fast to Oswestry via the A5. Lots of different firms showing that they do it. You've worked for bus companies.... you know the reasons why it happens or doesn't


I think it happens where it's appropriate.

Take the service 1 in Darlington to Bishop/Tow Law. They run everything back to Darlington but on a Sunday morning, they send a vehicle light to Bishop. Do they send it via Heighington and Shildon, or send it direct on the A6072 to St Helens Auckland and save 5/10 mins? And it's about 15 mins ahead of the main service car. Or the last X46 to Crook - the last one is 2255 but they could have a 2355 though doubt it could pay

Depends, how much of the Rhyl placement trips are in place solely because that's how it's always been done (which is something often brought up in the industry). Doesn't mean it was actively thought about, just amending times for trips already in place (given the Rhyl network has remained in the same state for a long time, just has timetable changes or minor route changes).
The fact the 6 starts in Leighton doesn't mean it was done for dead mileage, it may just be where the demand is. Granted, it could be dead mileage, it also may not be. We have no proof either way (unless you have a contact in Aintree HQ?

There are arguments for both sides with Winsford and Rhyl. Yes they may have thought of it, they may also not. We are going around in circles.



You bring up some other points though. Telford to Stafford bus starting at Newport, why not start it at Lilleshall timing point (which is on the A518, not in Lilleshall village). The only difference there is the short diversion into the estate which would cost a few minutes. Not 15 minutes, not miles difference. Minor differences, People can then get to Stafford 30 minutes earlier.
The 576 bus, if there was a morning placement trip and it went via West Felton, it would provide a bus into Shrewsbury 15 minutes earlier. The evening placement/dead mileage trip, again via West Felton, would provide a bus along arguably a core corridor (the X4/X5 is quite a busy corridor), 1 hour later Mon-Fri and almost 2 hours later on Saturdays. Easy way to improve the service.

The Tinsley service I mentioned above (which the First double decker runs onto) is another contra-peak service - First closing the Midland Road depot in Rotherham has forced/encouraged them to be creative with the amount of dead mileage that comes with operating all Rotherham services from depots in Sheffield/ Doncaster. So the X74 is a contra-peak service from Sheffield city centre to the Parkway Industrial Estate and then the Advanced Manufacturing Park etc at Tinsley - https://bustimes.org/services/x74-sheffield-rotherham - rather than running everything empty from Sheffield to Rotherham you can be creative with the diagrams - even if it only picks up a handful of passengers it may be cost effective

Isn't that a very strange dead mileage/placement route as surely there is a much more direct 'dead' route than that?

 

[Deerfold]

West Yorkshire has never seemed keen on such routes. For many years the only one in Calderdale I knew about was the 563. This did a morning trip from Bingley to Halifax via Cullingworth and Denholme and a an early afternoon trip back to match up with a school trip to/from a school in Bingley. I caught it once as part of a day out on the buses, once. I'd tried to catch it before once - bizarrely it was timed just a couple of minutes in front of the hourly 502 with which it shared most of its route. The first time I tried to catch it, the bus pulled up in Halifax bus station, the driver opened the doors and when no-one at the front of the queue moved, he shut them and immediately drove off. I was about 10 back - I tried to get his attention but failed.

Transdev Keighley run many light journeys to and from schools, between Idle and Otley, Keighley and Otley and 662s out of service to the other end of the route.

Transdev Burnley run a lot of services to/from their Queensgate depot, either as an extension to trips which don't normally pass it (X43) or starting/finishing short on a handful of routes (M3, M4, M5).

trentbarton are very keen on livening up bus journeys, but apparently only to their Langley Mill depot. It's served normally and frequently by the Rainbow 1, Black Cat and amberline - with some trips clearly only serving there because it's the depot, but gets an extra 3 minutes to/from Heanor on early and late trips on the H1 and 13 minutes on trips beyond Contmanyhey on the Ilkeston Flyer (and half an hour on the last night bus - the others only get as far as Ilkeston). It does get 2 buses from Derby at 0305 serving it - 4 hours after any other bus links the two.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Depends, how much of the Rhyl placement trips are in place solely because that's how it's always been done (which is something often brought up in the industry).

Don't they date from the closure of Llandudno Junction depot and the movement of boards to Rhyl depot?

The fact the 6 starts in Leighton doesn't mean it was done for dead mileage, it may just be where the demand is. Granted, it could be dead mileage, it also may not be. We have no proof either way (unless you have a contact in Aintree HQ?

If it's where the demand is, then by definition, they have obviously investigated it?

The 576 bus, if there was a morning placement trip and it went via West Felton, it would provide a bus into Shrewsbury 15 minutes earlier. The evening placement/dead mileage trip, again via West Felton, would provide a bus along arguably a core corridor (the X4/X5 is quite a busy corridor), 1 hour later Mon-Fri and almost 2 hours later on Saturdays. Easy way to improve the service.

Yes but again, the fact that there's a 576 that follows a revised route shows that they have considered it, and clearly discounted it.

 

[markymark2000]

Don't they date from the closure of Llandudno Junction depot and the movement of boards to Rhyl depot?

that I couldn't say. X12 perhaps but not sure if the 11X would have started at the same time. Bit before when I started becoming enthusiastic about the industry.

If it's where the demand is, then by definition, they have obviously investigated it?

Or, it just so happens to be the demand flow. If there was demand starting in Shevington, I don't doubt that they would start the service there. It's just where, people have used the bus or where Arrivas random service generate has put the route to stop.

Yes but again, the fact that there's a 576 that follows a revised route shows that they have considered it, and clearly discounted it.

Does it or does it mean someone thought 'lets' just reduce dead mileage and run it back fast' and didn't think about the realities of it. According to their open data, the service doesn't even stop at the bus stops it passes on the A5 or on Shrewsbury Road. It passes them and would have seconds time penalty and only if someone wanted to get on.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Or, it just so happens to be the demand flow. If there was demand starting in Shevington, I don't doubt that they would start the service there. It's just where, people have used the bus or where Arrivas random service generate has put the route to stop.

Whether or not it's where the demand is, it patently shows that it is something they consider, in that one bus starts at Leighton whilst the next vehicle doesn't. That's the point - they clearly consider it

Does it or does it mean someone thought 'lets' just reduce dead mileage and run it back fast' and didn't think about the realities of it. According to their open data, the service doesn't even stop at the bus stops it passes on the A5 or on Shrewsbury Road. It passes them and would have seconds time penalty and only if someone wanted to get on.

Were that to be the case, they would simply run the bus back to Oswestry depot. Perhaps it's more to do with the fact that they consider diverting one journey on another service via a village for little or no benefit

that I couldn't say. X12 perhaps but not sure if the 11X would have started at the same time. Bit before when I started becoming enthusiastic about the industry.

In a way, it doesn't really matter. It shows that they have clearly evaluated, in the way in which you suggested, the benefits of running a part route

 

[ACBest]

I’ve just remembered another reason too - dead runs can go as far over 50km as they want without the need for the duty to be operated under the EU drivers hours regulations, but registered services over that length of course mean the EU drivers hours regulations come into force. (Okay, so we all know about split registrations, but what if there’s nowhere to split it?)

For example, the company I work for has a dead run which goes over 50km, and if they were to decide to run that in service, there would be nowhere suitable en-route to split the service, bearing in mind that splits must be carried out at a location deemed to be an interchange or other major locality en route. That would then mean a tachograph would be required, as well as drivers who work that duty needing to be governed by the EU drivers hours rules, and suddenly the whole thing becomes one big headache.

 

[RT4038]

I’ve just remembered another reason too - dead runs can go as far over 50km as they want without the need for the duty to be operated under the EU drivers hours regulations, but registered services over that length of course mean the EU drivers hours regulations come into force. (Okay, so we all know about split registrations, but what if there’s nowhere to split it?)

For example, the company I work for has a dead run which goes over 50km, and if they were to decide to run that in service, there would be nowhere suitable en-route to split the service, bearing in mind that splits must be carried out at a location deemed to be an interchange or other major locality en route. That would then mean a tachograph would be required, as well as drivers who work that duty needing to be governed by the EU drivers hours rules, and suddenly the whole thing becomes one big headache.

There would pretty much have to be somewhere to split the registration of a local service, as it wouldn't be a registered local service if it only had bus stops at intervals of more than 15km. (An 'interchange' between the two split services? It would have to be fairly rural not to have major locality (whose definition?) somewhere along the route)

 

[ACBest]

There would pretty much have to be somewhere to split the registration of a local service, as it wouldn't be a registered local service if it only had bus stops at intervals of more than 15km. (An 'interchange' between the two split services? It would have to be fairly rural not to have major locality (whose definition?) somewhere along the route)

Aye, the dead run in question goes direct along a main road from one town to the junction with another main road, then straight along that main road back to the depot. Along the whole dead run, with the exception of bus stops on the way out of town, it only passes through two very small villages which each have a couple of bus stops, but neither could be considered interchanges for the reason they have no buses serving them! There are no bus stops between leaving the town, and getting to the first village; and again no bus stops between leaving the second village and reaching the bottom of the road on which the depot is located.

 

[nw1]

Is it correct that most of these disappeared at privatisation?

I was in the Alder Valley (South) area both immediately before and immediately after privatisation, and in the former case there were many 'positioning move' journeys, particularly at the start and end of the day but also some positioning moves off school journeys.

After privatisation these mostly disappeared (dead journeys at start and end of service became more the norm) but the odd one persisted. For instance there was a Midhurst-Haslemere schoolday-only off-pattern northbound journey around 0900 on the 219 (pre-privatisation) or 229 (post-privatisation) which had previously worked a school run. In both cases (pre- and post-privatisation) this then formed another service bus from Haslemere just after 0930 (a 211 to Woolmer Hill, or a 219 to Aldershot).

It's a good example of the sort of thing the OP is taking about, as it went straight up the A286 rather than diverting into Camelsdale as other journeys did. Presumably the cost of running it in service rather than 'dead' was next to nothing, as it would have just sat in Haslemere for 10 minutes doing nothing if it had run 'dead'. Indeed, in this case it was likely that there was marginal financial gain in running it in service, as it would be a fairly good time for Haslemere shopping trips from the villages along the A286. It was also pretty much on the opposite half-hour to the regular hourly journeys on the route.

So I'd expect that in some cases even today, 'dead' journeys will run in service where it is financially worthwhile to do so.

 

[6Gman]

Winsford to Crewe 15 minutes/4 miles would be recouped a lot easier than some of the other dead mileage routes which run. There are variables and as i've consistently said, it would have to be a case by case basis. I do believe though that there are a number of cases where dead mileage trip should be put in, especially where the trip runs at a time or near a place which have demand.

Really? Both your distance and your time seem on the low side.

 

[markymark2000]

Really? Both your distance and your time seem on the low side.

that was what TheGrandWazoo said so I just stuck with that.

Bearing in mind, that figure is additional journey time for running dead versus in service. The morning 31s can be done in half an hour so I think that it's an overestimate but whatever, it's moved on since then.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Really? Both your distance and your time seem on the low side.

I was working on the additional compared to running direct from Winsford depot to Crewe - hope that makes sense