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Who pays this Delay Repay?

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MotCO

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Can I pose a slight variation to this query? What if the OP missed the train from Kings Cross due to the SWR delay, but managed to catch one from Kings Cross 20 minutes later, which arrived on time in Edinburgh. The overall delay would be 20 minutes, under the 30 min threshold for Delay Repay.

If LNER argue that they should take the Minimum Connection Time to cross London, they could then deny any responsibility for DR. Does Delay Repay depend on what trains you should take, or what you actually took?
 
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AlterEgo

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Can I pose a slight variation to this query? What if the OP missed the train from Kings Cross due to the SWR delay, but managed to catch one from Kings Cross 20 minutes later, which arrived on time in Edinburgh. The overall delay would be 20 minutes, under the 30 min threshold for Delay Repay.
(SWR pay out at 15 minutes.)

If LNER argue that they should take the Minimum Connection Time to cross London
Nobody argues that every or even any passenger does this in reality, but the MCT is there for a reason - it regularises the "legal" time for one to cross London. Might take you longer, might take you less, time but once your MCT is fouled you are delayed. If you manage to make this up, it has no material impact on the fact the TOC A - the one who fouled MCT - is the one with the first delay and who foots the entire bill *if you are at the end of it all delayed into your final destination*.

, they could then deny any responsibility for DR.
LNER aren't responsible for the delay repay! As you pose in the initial question, the OP misses the LNER train due to the SWR delay. Are you getting confused here?

Does Delay Repay depend on what trains you should take, or what you actually took?
The industry calculates delay repay based on the itinerary it thinks you took based on your original itinerary and one it will generate accounting for the delay to the services. Hence, if you have a fouled connection, the system assumes you did not make the connection, because that is abundantly simple. Delay repay systems do not give a toss if you held that wee wee and ran for the first tube, or did a Frank Spencer rollerskate stunt to make a +11 walking connection between Newark stations.

If people want to go around arguing that "oh please sir I did actually make the connection and a different TOC is liable" then they can be my guest - we all need a hobby. But that just means more work and more bureaucracy and less of a simple, easy life.

Is there an option to send one email to both SWR and LNER customer services, making that clear so each knows the other is included on the message, setting out the facts, appending a scan of the ticket, and asking them to resolve it between them and let you know which one of them is going to pay out?
You can do that, but that will probably result in nothing happening or a delayed response. You will create a magical black hole of bureaucracy by doing this.

SWR don’t seem to agree with you.

Could you please cite some sort of regulation that I can quote, if necessary?
Sadly not. As I've said this is not something which is customer facing - it is just how this works in the Big Fudge.

SWR fouled your connection. If you'd claimed from them in the first place they'd be paying out, so one assumes they have info from LNER that you were on the "correct" LNER train. (Did you put this in your claim? If you have split tickets or a multi TOC trip they ask you to list each individual train). Note that DR forms ask for your *planned* journey so *they will work out the correct delayed itinerary for you*.
 

endecotp

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SWR fouled your connection. If you'd claimed from them in the first place they'd be paying out

I don’t think so - I don’t believe SWR know anything about my rejected LNER claim.

so one assumes they have info from LNER that you were on the "correct" LNER train.

No, I don’t think so.

(Did you put this in your claim? If you have split tickets or a multi TOC trip they ask you to list each individual train). Note that DR forms ask for your *planned* journey so *they will work out the correct delayed itinerary for you*.

The LNER form asked for more info than the SWR one; I told LNER that I caught their train, but SWR didn’t ask.
 

Hadders

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I've had this sort of thing before, in my case it was LNER and Scotrail. It ended up with me getting paid delay repay by both of them!
 

Bletchleyite

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The industry calculates delay repay based on the itinerary it thinks you took based on your original itinerary and one it will generate accounting for the delay to the services. Hence, if you have a fouled connection, the system assumes you did not make the connection, because that is abundantly simple. Delay repay systems do not give a toss if you held that wee wee and ran for the first tube, or did a Frank Spencer rollerskate stunt to make a +11 walking connection between Newark stations.

This is certainly what Avanti do, which is why I have on multiple occasions now been paid a 2 hour claim despite only putting in for a 15 or 30 minute one (coupled with the fact that their system is too stupid to pay the lower of what you claimed and what they think is due, which would seem to be a really simple measure to avoid these overpayments).

However, does every TOC do it that way? If not, that will lead to these conflicts where both think the other is liable.
 

redreni

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It matters in the reverse too (first TOC pays 15 min DR, second one doesn't), just one of those things. Nobody complaining about the first TOC paying out in that case I expect!
I wouldn't dream of claiming in those circumstances, if I still made my connection.

Call me contrarian if you like, but I claim from the TOC that delayed me (or first delayed me, if there is more than one), not from a TOC that slowed me down a bit without having any effect on my arrival time at the end of my journey.
 

AlterEgo

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I wouldn't dream of claiming in those circumstances, if I still made my connection.

Call me contrarian if you like, but I claim from the TOC that delayed me (or first delayed me, if there is more than one), not from a TOC that slowed me down a bit without having any effect on my arrival time at the end of my journey.
It genuinely doesn't matter who you claim from, as per NRCoT the claim will be passed to whichever TOC is actually liable, which is not the same as the TOC who would bear the most common sense "responsibility" for your delay.

You could miss your train at Kings Cross because of SWR recovering from a fatality and end up on the LNER 30 mins after (current DR entitlement: 25% of your return ticket), and then that train ends up breaking down and is now over 2 hours late. SWR have to pay that one - the full amount 100% of your return, even though it wasn't their fault you were late and it certainly wasn't their fault you ended up getting further delayed by some other company's incompetence or poor performance, quadrupling their liability to you. That's just the way things go and it isn't the passenger's concern. It all evens out in the end.

This is certainly what Avanti do, which is why I have on multiple occasions now been paid a 2 hour claim despite only putting in for a 15 or 30 minute one (coupled with the fact that their system is too stupid to pay the lower of what you claimed and what they think is due, which would seem to be a really simple measure to avoid these overpayments).

However, does every TOC do it that way? If not, that will lead to these conflicts where both think the other is liable.
I believe every TOC does do it that way, with various levels of human intervention.
 

redreni

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It genuinely doesn't matter who you claim from, as per NRCoT the claim will be passed to whichever TOC is actually liable, which is not the same as the TOC who would bear the most common sense "responsibility" for your delay.
As mentioned, my experience and that of the OP (and others) is claims are rejected on the basis that the TOC thinks another TOC is liable, and are not forwarded, leaving the passenger caught in the middle. That's why the OP asked for advice. Explaining what should happen and pretending that it always does, doesn't necessarily help.

You could miss your train at Kings Cross because of SWR recovering from a fatality and end up on the LNER 30 mins after (current DR entitlement: 25% of your return ticket), and then that train ends up breaking down and is now over 2 hours late. SWR have to pay that one - the full amount 100% of your return, even though it wasn't their fault you were late and it certainly wasn't their fault you ended up getting further delayed by some other company's incompetence or poor performance, quadrupling their liability to you. That's just the way things go and it isn't the passenger's concern. It all evens out in the end.
Perhaps I oversimplified for the sake of brevity: I'm not making a judgement on which company (if any) has cocked up. I'm proceeding on the assumption - as one has to - that if a TOC's train is late, it is deemed responsible for compensating the passenger (which doesn't mean it is actually to blame, nor preclude it seeking compensation from a third party if the industry arrangements permit it - though hopefully in the brave new world there will be some acceptance that these things don't really matter). So, I think we're on the same page mostly.

All you're saying that I don't particularly agree with is that where a delay on an earlier leg simply shortens my waiting time to begin the next leg of my journey but doesn't put me overall behind schedule, I'm supposed to allow the railway to pretend the operator of the first leg is responsible for a subsequent delay even if that reduces or removes my entitlement to compensation. I just think that's bizare - once I begin the second leg of my journey on schedule, at that point I know I will have no delay repay claim against anybody unless something else goes wrong. It's more than just counterintuitive to say that whatever else may go wrong after that point, isn't the cause of the overall delay - it is factually incorrect.

What if the first leg is Grand Central and the second is LNER? This isn't cakeism; I've already said I wouldn't claim in the reverse situation i.e. I wouldn't claim against a DR15 operator for an overall 15-29 minute delay if the delay on leg 1 - the DR15 operator's service - wasn't material to my actual arrival time at my destination and the material delay occurred on leg 2 which was operated by a DR30 or an open access operator.

I can agree it doesn't really matter if the OP's claim is paid out by LNER or SWR, although since the claim wasn't forwarded, the OP is left wondering which TOC to pursue or whether to pursue both. Hopefully it won't come to this, but if the OP needed to complain to the Ombudsman, they would have to name one TOC on the complaint form, and the Ombudsman would only be able to consider one complaint at a time about each of them. I suppose a passenger could complain about both in parallel, and invite the Ombudsman to adjudicate and direct one of them to pay. The idea that the passenger never need worry about who is liable is very nice, but it's not how things are sadly.
 

AlterEgo

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As mentioned, my experience and that of the OP (and others) is claims are rejected on the basis that the TOC thinks another TOC is liable, and are not forwarded, leaving the passenger caught in the middle. That's why the OP asked for advice. Explaining what should happen and pretending that it always does, doesn't necessarily help.
Of course that's quite different, that is a TOC not doing what they're supposed to do, but it is the passenger's absolute right to have the claim forwarded by the train company, and they can insist on that if they get fobbed off.

What if the first leg is Grand Central and the second is LNER? This isn't cakeism; I've already said I wouldn't claim in the reverse situation i.e. I wouldn't claim against a DR15 operator for an overall 15-29 minute delay if the delay on leg 1 - the DR15 operator's service - wasn't material to my actual arrival time at my destination and the material delay occurred on leg 2 which was operated by a DR30 or an open access operator.
I think in these circumstances if I was still in the business and approached in this way (passenger says "well that's kinda BS isn't it that I get less money?") I would make a goodwill payment (not under the DR scheme) to make the passenger whole. Or you say "that's just how it works and those are the rules" but given you had a bad time of it, here's a comp journey or a voucher or whatever. Train companies really should use comp journeys or comp upgrades a lot more, they cost nothing to give out and frequently they are used on discretionary journeys the passenger otherwise wouldn't take ("Oh this is valid anywhere on Virgin West Coast? Can I go to Manchester shopping for a weekend then on this? I've never been") rather than eating into bread and butter revenue.

I have done that before.

Of course that was a decade ago now! I rather suspect the human element has gone out of it which has led to a vastly less efficient process today. Back when you had humans validating every claim, you'd get claims where someone said they were delayed by 143 minutes and you'd validate the claim and find zero. These days you just get a rejection email, but a good agent ten years ago knew most people don't tell lies like that and picked up the phone, and inevitably they claimed for the wrong date or some other minor error. So you just correct it and all is good, plus the customer gets the positive feeling that you *could* have rejected it but the company felt duty bound to do its best to sort it out ASAP.

Don't mistake me for defending the system - Delay Repay is a really unholy mess now and the number of declined claims reported here has risen so much it really ought to be done by a clearing house or the retailer. Even I get declined claims about 25% of the time, despite filling in the details perfectly. If I can't get it right as someone who used to process the damn claims I don't know how anyone else is supposed to cope.
 

endecotp

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It genuinely doesn't matter who you claim from, as per NRCoT the claim will be passed to whichever TOC is actually liable

@AlterEho, I’m not sure what to make of your posts; on the one hand you seem to make authoritative statements as if you thoroughly understand the delay repay system from the inside, but on the other hand you say thing d like “the claim will be passed …” that don’t match my real-life experience.


…… the full amount 100% of your return,

On a slight tangent: there aren’t any return fares between Edinburgh and Poole any more, so the most I can get is 100% of the single fare. That’s part of the reason why I’m pursuing this case; my outward journey was delayed by about 4 hours, but I can’t claim for “100% of the return” because I only had a single. I might have ignored this 30 minute delay on my return journey, except that I felt short-changed by the compensation for the outbound delay.
 

AlterEgo

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@AlterEho, I’m not sure what to make of your posts; on the one hand you seem to make authoritative statements as if you thoroughly understand the delay repay system from the inside, but on the other hand you say thing d like “the claim will be passed …” that don’t match my real-life experience.
Well, yeah - that's the railway for you. X is supposed to happen, but Y happens instead.

As far as your question though - who pays? It's SWR's liability to pay you, the claim should have been passed to them for the reasons given, and that hasn't actually happened. You should have asked LNER to forward your claim, as per the industry's own rules and the customer contract. That they didn't is lazy, and has led to more confusion. I mean, I can't account for their agent's incompetence, can I?
 

Belperpete

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It is important that TOCs forward claims, because by the time they have decided another TOC should be responsible, you may well be over the time limit for submitting a fresh claim yourself. However, I understand some TOCs who receive a forwarded claim need you to enter the details again, to get it onto their system. I have a feeling that SWR are one of these? In which case, might LNER have forwarded details to SWR, while asking the OP to raise a claim with SWR direct?

On those occasions when a TOC has wrongly forwarded a claim of mine, I have immediately appealed that decision with the original TOC. Waiting for the second TOC to decide to bounce it back can waste a lot of time.

In my experience, claims are initially processed using the standard method of reworking the itinerary, which will use the MCT. However, if you appeal, they can look into it in more detail.

I suspect each time a claim is passed from one TOC to another, it is treated as a new claim by the receiving TOC. Which means that each time, it is processed by the "dumb" standard analysis. Which can lead to claims ping-ponging. It is better to stick a spanner in the works, by appealing the decision to forward the claim. And if you are lucky, it can lead to both TOC's paying out.
 

endecotp

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I can't account for their agent's incompetence, can I?

There isn’t a (human) agent. It’s all automated. To all the people who’ve said “you should ask them to <something>” - there literally is no way to do any of that.
 

redreni

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There isn’t a (human) agent. It’s all automated. To all the people who’ve said “you should ask them to <something>” - there literally is no way to do any of that.
They still employ people and it is possible to contact them. Harder work than it should be, yes, but literally possible.
 

yorkie

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Can I pose a slight variation to this query? What if the OP missed the train from Kings Cross due to the SWR delay, but managed to catch one from Kings Cross 20 minutes later, which arrived on time in Edinburgh. The overall delay would be 20 minutes, under the 30 min threshold for Delay Repay.
If the connection was missed, then it becomes SWR's responsibility; SWR would compensate for a 20 min delay.
If LNER argue that they should take the Minimum Connection Time to cross London, they could then deny any responsibility for DR. Does Delay Repay depend on what trains you should take, or what you actually took?
DR is calculated by comparing the booked arrival time with the actual arrival time.

Given the connection was made, LNER are liable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I can agree it doesn't really matter if the OP's claim is paid out by LNER or SWR, although since the claim wasn't forwarded, the OP is left wondering which TOC to pursue or whether to pursue both. Hopefully it won't come to this, but if the OP needed to complain to the Ombudsman, they would have to name one TOC on the complaint form, and the Ombudsman would only be able to consider one complaint at a time about each of them. I suppose a passenger could complain about both in parallel, and invite the Ombudsman to adjudicate and direct one of them to pay. The idea that the passenger never need worry about who is liable is very nice, but it's not how things are sadly.
If it was me, I would go back to LNER and state that I made the connection at King's Cross with plenty of time to spare, and it was their train that caused me to be late.
 

endecotp

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SWR have forwarded it to LNER!

And now LNER have replied to me about the claim that SWR forwarded to them:

"We've determined that the delay was the responsibility of South Western Railway, the train operator for your journey. In line with the NRCoT and our obligations to assist with your compensation claim, we have forwarded the necessary details of your claim to South Western Railway's Customer Services team."
 

David Horne

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Evening all
I can’t quite work out whether this relates to a hypothetical case or an actual Delay Repay claim. If it’s the latter and you are an LNER customer and you haven’t yet received the Delay Repay compensation you were expecting because of uncertainty over which TOC is responsible, please drop me an email at david.horne@lner.co.uk and we will look into it and try to resolve it for you.
Thanks
David Horne
MD, LNER
 

redreni

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@endecotp I would email the MD as per his offer. That should get things done.

While you're here, Mr Horne, I wonder if we can get to a stage where ping pong is not allowed? If one TOC forwards a claim to another and the second TOC believes that was an error, you would think common sense would tell staff they cannot just forward it back, they need to speak to somebody at the first TOC and agree who is responsible before going back to the customer?

But obviously, common sense isn't that common. So maybe that basic standard of behaviour needs to be mandated?
 

yorkie

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@endecotp I would email the MD as per his offer. That should get things done.
Agreed. Many thanks to @David Horne for reaching out.

It is a real claim (if it's possible to query the database of issues for Poole to Edinburgh journeys, that should fine it).

The hypothetical element was introduced purely by LNER, on the basis that the SWR train may have - hypothetically - caused the original poster to miss the LNER train. But, given cross-London transfers are incredibly elongated (no doubt in my mind this is - at least in part - intentionally implemented by the rail industry to reduce missed connections), the opening poster was not only able to make their booked LNER train, but they had 15-20 mins spare.

This is absolutely my experience of SWR to LNER itineraries; I've even been refused access to the 1st class lounge on the basis that I got from Waterloo to King's Cross so early that I had more than an hour before my onward service!

So, there is no hypothetical element to the actual claim, only a hypothetical claim by LNER in an attempt to get SWR to pay for a delay that SWR did not, in fact, cause.
While you're here, Mr Horne, I wonder if we can get to a stage where ping pong is not allowed?...
That would be good; also if any train company is really serious about improving its image, customer relations and customer loyalty, engaging with a small group of well-travelled forum members for feedback/suggestions would - if we were listened to - have some serious impact, I reckon.

There are so many 'quick wins' to be had, if only TOCs would listen to the many legitimate concerns raised on here, which could start to reverse the poor reputation the rail industry has with the general public...

None of us want to be so frustrated with companies like LNER that we have to resort to criticising them on a regular basis; we'd far rather the rail industry worked with us, for the good of everyone who cares about the industry.
 
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agk2126

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If the SWR train delayed you so that you would have fouled the minimum connection time they will probably end up paying regardless of whether you made the connection or not. Delay repay is a blind process; a fouled connection is a fouled connection.

What happens if (a) a minimum connection time was fouled, (b) I still made the connection, and (c) for some reason, the earlier train ended up much more severely delayed than the next one? In other words, if actually missing the connection would have resulted in being less delayed to my final destination? Under a blind Delay Repay calculation, presumably I would have been paid according to the second train, even if was aboard the previous one.

I assume this type of scenario would ultimately get fixed, but only after one or more appeals?
 
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