Who hasn't driven a Dart?

[pompeyfan]

after a discussion earlier, it got me thinking. With the exception of limo drivers, and drivers at depots where they have only recently gone to 0% dart operation, which class D licence holder would never have driven a Dart Slf? Every local operator I can think of has at least 1 dart, is that replicated up and down the country?

 

[Qwerty133]

Anyone who works on National Express, Megabus and other coach services, as well as private hires and OAP holiday services, and has never worked as a service bus driver?

 

[bb21]

First Leicester never had any Dart, step entrance or SLF ones, iirc.

I'm sure Qwerty133 will correct me if I were wrong.

I don't think NCT had any Darts either, although they did have Sprytes and plenty of Solos.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hang on, I think NCT might have Enviro200 Darts, or are you just talking about the original Darts?

 

[pompeyfan]

Anyone who works on National Express, Megabus and other coach services, as well as private hires and OAP holiday services, and has never worked as a service bus driver?

Okay fair point, clearly I didn't think far enough out the box on that one, not really such an interesting topic after all.

In regards to the other question I'm more on about the cab environment, so Dennis tridents would also cover that box off as the controls are near identical.

 

[Qwerty133]

First Leicester never had any Dart, step entrance or SLF ones, iirc.

I'm sure Qwerty133 will correct me if I were wrong.

I can't think of any, but with the Dart being almost 10 years older than myself I couldn't say with any guarantee.

 

[jp4712]

As a preservationist I've driven some pretty esoteric stuff over the years - AEC, Daimler, Crossley, Foden, Leyland, Atkinson, Seddon off the top of my head. But I've never driven a Dennis, let alone a Dart.

 

[pompeyfan]

It surprises me that there were no darts in Leicester, I had always assumed they were the backbone of the midibus market from 1995-2010ish. This is why I asked the question as I assumed that everyone would be familiar with the cab controls etc. the discussion came about speaking to a PCV driving instructor, who also does depot/vehicle familiarisation for both new and existing PCV holders. I automatically assumed that (with a handful of exceptions) that most existing holders knew the ins and outs of a dart

 

[Qwerty133]

It surprises me that there were no darts in Leicester, I had always assumed they were the backbone of the midibus market from 1995-2010ish. This is why I asked the question as I assumed that everyone would be familiar with the cab controls etc. the discussion came about speaking to a PCV driving instructor, who also does depot/vehicle familiarisation for both new and existing PCV holders. I automatically assumed that (with a handful of exceptions) that most existing holders knew the ins and outs of a dart

There definately were, and still are darts in Leicester, its just First who haven't operated them. I can't think of anything dart sized operated so I imsngine its only because they've never had the need for buses of that size.

 

[bb21]

It surprises me that there were no darts in Leicester, I had always assumed they were the backbone of the midibus market from 1995-2010ish. This is why I asked the question as I assumed that everyone would be familiar with the cab controls etc. the discussion came about speaking to a PCV driving instructor, who also does depot/vehicle familiarisation for both new and existing PCV holders. I automatically assumed that (with a handful of exceptions) that most existing holders knew the ins and outs of a dart

Arriva do have them, lots of them, but First never had much of a midibus presence, the closest I can think of being Volvo B6s.

Full size single deckers and proper d/d's only AFAIK.

 

[Qwerty133]

Arriva do have them, lots of them, but First never had much of a midibus presence, the closest I can think of being Volvo B6s.

Full size single deckers and proper d/d's only AFAIK.

Arriva have removed most of them from Leicester recently, South Wigston is now almost exclusively double deck, and Thurmaston's last permanently allocated dart was swapped for a SB200 recently, although Thurmaston still have a couple on loan, and darts are also used on the Arriva owned Hinckley Bus services into Leicester. However darts are still common place in Leicester, now mainly operated by Centrebus, as well as the Arriva ones mentioned above, and irregular appearances by Stagecoach examples.

 

[bb21]

Yes, I probably should have said did rather than do.

 

[Tom B]

I know that Lothian employ two grades of driver, double-deck and single-deck. A double deck driver who was promoted prior to, 1993? could conceivably have never driven a Dart.

Likewise I believe that some London garages arrange their staff such that a driver may only drive 2 or 3 routes, and if they are all too busy to cope with a Dart...

 

[185]

Darts? Once. Horrid things. Driven one to a KFC drivethru, then realised it didn't fit the height bar. Felt like driving through the wall to end it's pain.

Javelins.... mildly better, driven lots of them, but rather have a Scania, DAF or Volvo anyday.

 

[Amberley54]

Darts? Once. Horrid things. Driven one to a KFC drivethru, then realised it didn't fit the height bar. Felt like driving through the wall to end it's pain.

Javelins.... mildly better, driven lots of them, but rather have a Scania, DAF or Volvo anyday.

Driven everything from a Dennis Loline to a Dart. Driving Experience often dependant upon how they have been maintained and driven previously.

Still think later model AEC Reliance (modern Scanias good motors though) best - great power ratios and tolerant of even the most heavy footed drivers. Always needed to keep an eye on water temperature and have a strategic reserve just in case though!

 

[pompeyfan]

Darts? Once. Horrid things. Driven one to a KFC drivethru, then realised it didn't fit the height bar. Felt like driving through the wall to end it's pain.

Javelins.... mildly better, driven lots of them, but rather have a Scania, DAF or Volvo anyday.

Agree, give me a heavyweight any day. Sadly where I work we don't have any anymore unless we borrow/steal one from another depot. Shame really!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Darts? Once. Horrid things. Driven one to a KFC drivethru, then realised it didn't fit the height bar. Felt like driving through the wall to end it's pain.

Javelins.... mildly better, driven lots of them, but rather have a Scania, DAF or Volvo anyday.

Agree, give me a heavyweight any day. Sadly where I work we don't have any anymore unless we borrow/steal one from another depot. Shame really!

 

[34D]

Arriva do have them, lots of them, but First never had much of a midibus presence, the closest I can think of being Volvo B6s.

Full size single deckers and proper d/d's only AFAIK.

First Leicester did of course have the Dennis Lance - so a tick for that generic cab layout.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

First Leicester did of course have the Dennis Lance - so a tick for that generic cab layout.

Surely the Leicester midibus was the small batch of Excels before they moved to Wigan?

Ps NCT had a solitary Dart with EL Spryte bodywork

 

[wellwhatitis]

Unfortunately while I was at Midland Red North they went through a bit of a Dennis phase culminating in me having to suffer a plethora of Falcons, Dominators and then Darts. All I can say is they should stick to Dustcarts, I hated all of them. In a later stint at NXWM fortunately I was at the only Garage that didn't operate Tridents, so I never had the pleasure. Hateful contraptions.

 

[90019]

In a later stint at NXWM fortunately I was at the only Garage that didn't operate Tridents, so I never had the pleasure. Hateful contraptions.

I have driven Tridents, and while some of them may have problems that nobody bothers to fix, they're some of my favorite buses to drive - especially the 04 plate ones we have, which feel like rocketships compared to most of the rest of the fleet. Shame it's rare that I get to drive them.

The Darts we had were something of a mixed bunch - I never experienced the V reg ones, as they were long gone when I started, but from what I've been told that's no bad thing.

Most of the Y reg ones, though, were still going until a couple of years ago, and were utter heaps with engines that weren't up to the job, making them painfully slow. There were two in particular I hated; 183 (Y183 CFS) and 185 (Y185 CFS), the first of which couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding, which was combined with a rubbish gearbox with no kickdown. When faced with a hill (of which there are many in Edinburgh) you could build up a bit of speed before it if you were lucky, but you'd start to slow down as soon as there was a slight incline, and usually end up a little over 5mph, maybe as high as 10 if you were lucky.
I hated 185 because it had a throttle pedal which was either on or off, save for less than 1mm of travel where you could get it going at a constant speed, but when you managed to find that magic spot, after about 20-30 seconds the gearbox would get bored and kick down for no reason whatsoever, at which point your foot would move and you'd lose the spot you'd finally managed to find.

The 52 and 53 plate Darts, on the other hand, were fantastic little workhorses. They'd been pretty much run into the ground by the time they were withdrawn over the past year or so, so had plenty of niggling faults, but most of the time if they broke, either thumping the dashboard if it was a wiring fault or turning the bus off and on again would solve the problem. They were also powerful enough, a couple of them being proper little rockets that made getting out of stops on busy roads no problem.
To be honest, I do somewhat miss them now they've all been withdrawn and mostly sold on.

 

[wellwhatitis]

I hated 185 because it had a throttle pedal which was either on or off, save for less than 1mm of travel where you could get it going at a constant speed, but when you managed to find that magic spot, after about 20-30 seconds the gearbox would get bored and kick down for no reason whatsoever, at which point your foot would move and you'd lose the spot you'd finally managed to find.

That was a common feature on mid production SLF Darts. Combined with the unique Dennis Catapult braking system, made the vehicles extremely difficult to feel in proper control of.

I will take your word on the Trident but all the ones I've travelled on sound just like double decker Darts to me, always revving their guts out whatever the road conditions.

Something too about Dennis suspension that made these vehicles feel very unstable constantly wobbling from one side to the other.

 

[90019]

That was a common feature on mid production SLF Darts. Combined with the unique Dennis Catapult braking system, made the vehicles extremely difficult to feel in proper control of.

Oddly, ours didn't have that issue, apart from one that had been adjusted somehow to have extremely sharp brakes, which made for some interesting experiences when you hadn't driven it for a while and had forgotten about it.
Though there was the wonderful retarder which was either on or off (unlike the Volvos we have on which it's variable), and meant you had some rather interesting moments when slowing down to come off the A8 heading to or from Ratho on the 12, as it would peak in agression at around 45mph, jolting the bus rather violently if you started to brake at that speed.

I will take your word on the Trident but all the ones I've travelled on sound just like double decker Darts to me, always revving their guts out whatever the road conditions.

Our ones do sort of do that, though it's partially to do with the gearbox, but also how you drive them. The newer ones (52-04) you can easily drive without doing that, but the older 51 plate examples aren't quite powerful enough, so have to be ragged about to keep time.

Something too about Dennis suspension that made these vehicles feel very unstable constantly wobbling from one side to the other.

I always found the suspension on our ones to be oddly good. While it wasn't the smoothest ride in the world, and the body did rattle to the point where it felt like things were about to fall off (and occasionally did), they did iron out the many and frequent potholes and bumps around Edinburgh remarkably well - certainly better than the newer Volvos that make up the majority of the rest of the single deck fleet.

 

[BestWestern]

Driven a range of shagged ex-London SLFs with Marshall bodies, Barbie-spec Pointer 2s, and step entrance jobbies with Plaxton, Wright, Northern Counties, Alexander and even UVG efforts on top. Despite being universally panned, I found the Marshall bodywork to be the best - plenty of space, nice high driving position with a deep windscreen and tall cabside window. Just not great in the summer! Pointer 2s I found feel cramped because of the shallow glazing and windscreen. The step entrance Paladin was awful, the smallest cab I've ever sat in.

In general, I rather like them. Easy to drive and if you happen to get a good one they fly. If you get a crap one of course, that's another matter...

I agree about the suspension on the SLFs though, they seem to sort of float down the road!

 

[pompeyfan]

Driven a range of shagged ex-London SLFs with Marshall bodies, Barbie-spec Pointer 2s, and step entrance jobbies with Plaxton, Wright, Northern Counties, Alexander and even UVG efforts on top. Despite being universally panned, I found the Marshall bodywork to be the best - plenty of space, nice high driving position with a deep windscreen and tall cabside window. Just not great in the summer! Pointer 2s I found feel cramped because of the shallow glazing and windscreen. The step entrance Paladin was awful, the smallest cab I've ever sat in.

In general, I rather like them. Easy to drive and if you happen to get a good one they fly. If you get a crap one of course, that's another matter...

I agree about the suspension on the SLFs though, they seem to sort of float down the road!

Sounds very much like a certain Hampshire garage. I disagree about Marshall's, I found plaxtons to be better in general, they also tend to be less shagged out then the Marshall's. I find the plaxtons also tend to wallow around too. I also found that with darts you tend to get either a good engine or good brakes, not both on the same bus! (Not saying any buses are dangerous btw, just some brakes are sharper then others!)

 

[BestWestern]

Sounds very much like a certain Hampshire garage. I disagree about Marshall's, I found plaxtons to be better in general, they also tend to be less shagged out then the Marshall's. I find the plaxtons also tend to wallow around too. I also found that with darts you tend to get either a good engine or good brakes, not both on the same bus! (Not saying any buses are dangerous btw, just some brakes are sharper then others!)

Very true! Gutless but stops, or goes but has a sponge under the pedal! Short Marshall Darts with low floors but no wheelchair or buggy bay were always entertaining from a passenger point of view... The Barbie's were in better nick for certain.

 

[pompeyfan]

Do you mind me asking what garage you used to/do work for?

 

[darloscott]

Yup in my 5 years I've driven a handful of Darts, though MPDs which take some getting used to as they handle very differently to the full size buses I had driven from passing my test. We mixed both Euro2 and Euro3 MPDs on the same route which made a comparison interesting, though we now have Solos which are different again.

 

[SWTH]

Lost count of the amount of Darts I've driven, Plaxton, Alexander, Marshall, East Lancs and UVG-bodied examples, on just about every length chassis with most of the engine/gearbox combinations.

The ALX200 bodies were the best by a country mile but they were all let down by the woeful Dennis chassis. Gutless, unreliable and poor handling, not a patch on a B6BLE.

Two versions in particular stick in my mind;
MPD's - long overhangs on short chassis combined to give a very odd-handling vehicle, almost like riding a motorised see-saw.
SPD's - too long for a lightweight chassis, and most fitted with the utterly terrible Voith 3-speed gearbox. Yet to see one that doesn't have a very pronounced droop after the rear axle thanks to the weight of the drivetrain.

Tridents, another tale of Dennis cheap and nastiness. Particularly awful with the Voith gearbox, no use for anything other than local city work. The ZF examples were better, but everything else still broke on a regular basis.

Javelins, not a patch on a Volvo B10M, or even a DAF SB. Under-engined (they used the C-series Cummins rather than the far more appropriate L10), and generally crap.

Lance - only driven one, not at all keen on driving another.

In short, cheap nasty chassis, designed to appeal to the accountants.

 

[Robertj21a]

Lost count of the amount of Darts I've driven, Plaxton, Alexander, Marshall, East Lancs and UVG-bodied examples, on just about every length chassis with most of the engine/gearbox combinations.

The ALX200 bodies were the best by a country mile but they were all let down by the woeful Dennis chassis. Gutless, unreliable and poor handling, not a patch on a B6BLE.

Two versions in particular stick in my mind;
MPD's - long overhangs on short chassis combined to give a very odd-handling vehicle, almost like riding a motorised see-saw.
SPD's - too long for a lightweight chassis, and most fitted with the utterly terrible Voith 3-speed gearbox. Yet to see one that doesn't have a very pronounced droop after the rear axle thanks to the weight of the drivetrain.

Tridents, another tale of Dennis cheap and nastiness. Particularly awful with the Voith gearbox, no use for anything other than local city work. The ZF examples were better, but everything else still broke on a regular basis.

Javelins, not a patch on a Volvo B10M, or even a DAF SB. Under-engined (they used the C-series Cummins rather than the far more appropriate L10), and generally crap.

Lance - only driven one, not at all keen on driving another.

In short, cheap nasty chassis, designed to appeal to the accountants.

But isn't that how many small operators still managed to survived ?

You only have to look at the mighty First Group and their preference for Volvos over many years to see that even the big groups can't now afford the big heavyweights for anything other than the most arduous work.

 

[the101]

All this about Dennises being crap leads me to wonder how so many of them have led long lives in Hong Kong, where operating conditions are a lot tougher than in the UK. Perhaps operators there look after their kit rather than spend the absolute minimum on it as most in the UK do.

 

[BestWestern]

Two versions in particular stick in my mind;
MPD's - long overhangs on short chassis combined to give a very odd-handling vehicle, almost like riding a motorised see-saw.
SPD's - too long for a lightweight chassis, and most fitted with the utterly terrible Voith 3-speed gearbox. Yet to see one that doesn't have a very pronounced droop after the rear axle thanks to the weight of the drivetrain.

Funnily enough I was looking at a SuperPointer today, S plate ex Cardiff, and noticed the alarming droop at the back end! I assume it's been preserved, but I wouldn't fancy its long term chances of survival. And I was once told by someone who regularly drove SPDs that the transmission was crap.