What would make the best rescue train?

[Meerkat]

Top of my head first suggestion would be 153s, but I haven’t decided how many in each rescue train.
Should be a number available soon (hopefully)
Diesel, so not relying on the wires/conductor rail.
End gangway for longitudinal passenger transfers
Strip out the seats, build a storage area for ramps, coupling converters, lighting and emergency supplies to put onto a failed train if evacuation not feasible (water, food, blankets, lights, fans, bogs in bags) then longitudinal seats and many grab rails in the rest of the space to give max rescue capacity.
Guess you would need a PRM toilet.
Possible issue is the doors - are they wide enough for an alongside bridged transfer?

 

[Whistler40145]

Top of my head first suggestion would be 153s, but I haven’t decided how many in each rescue train.
Should be a number available soon (hopefully)
Diesel, so not relying on the wires/conductor rail.
End gangway for longitudinal passenger transfers
Strip out the seats, build a storage area for ramps, coupling converters, lighting and emergency supplies to put onto a failed train if evacuation not feasible (water, food, blankets, lights, fans, bogs in bags) then longitudinal seats and many grab rails in the rest of the space to give max rescue capacity.
Guess you would need a PRM toilet.
Possible issue is the doors - are they wide enough for an alongside bridged transfer?

Any particular reason for the use of 153s and not something a bit more modern?

 

[Meerkat]

Any particular reason for the use of 153s and not something a bit more modern?

Such as? I was thinking available and cheap, and single car design is flexible.

 

[Whistler40145]

Such as? I was thinking available and cheap, and single car design is flexible.

They’d make a good greenhouse

 

[Iskra]

Rather than having dedicated 'rescue trains' I think a better idea, would instead be to have a mandatory standardised coupling, with the current system of a small number of strategically positioned rescue locomotives on mainlines. That would make things a lot easier in the long term.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

A 153 rescuing a 10/800 or a 12/450 (examples). Sounds excellent and cannot see any issues at all...

(Except issues of power, attempting to move with bad adhesion (etc) and such...)

 

[big all]

In general it depends on what you mean by "rescue train". To me a mobile but broken down train is for rescuing so a traction that will work and recover the situation in an expected time scale that is appropriate.
You can over do the the rescue element at a great extra cost its all a balance between cost and benefit.

 

[Meerkat]

A 153 rescuing a 10/800 or a 12/450 (examples). Sounds excellent and cannot see any issues at all...

(Except issues of power, attempting to move with bad adhesion (etc) and such...)

As I said I hadn’t decided how many 153 units would make up a rescue train, and part of the idea was to have kit on the train to make the passengers safer and more comfortable if the failure couldn’t be moved.
Aren’t the 800s and 450s less of an issue anyway as there are plenty of them about to rescue each other (and if they can’t then likely nothing can)? I was thinking more for the messy northern cities with lots of short trains of mixed types.

 

[Sebastian O]

Aren’t there still some spare 442s lying around?

 

[sprinterguy]

The idea of using redundant, fully amortised rolling stock to provide a passenger rescue function certainly appeals. Class 153s certainly seem to fit the bill as they're self powered, can be driven from either end, have end corridor connections, are compatible to varying extents with a wide range of current stock on the network and can be formed up into whatever length of train is required. Something should certainly be done to reduce the number of hours passengers are stranded on failed trains in extreme circumstances.

Network Rail prospectively converted a pair of class 121 'bubble cars' into emergency evacuation vehicles for the Severn Tunnel, so the general concept has some precedent even though they never saw use.

However it remains to be seen whether Network Rail or any operator would consider it worthwhile to keep a small fleet of vehicles fully maintained and serviced for the rare instances where they would be used, or whether the time taken to fire up, build air and get the units to the incident site would actually be greater than commandeering a unit already in service to go to the aid of the stricken train. There are also a lot of trains on the network without corridor connections, and there may well be compatibility issues between different rolling stock types if intending to undertake a train to train evacuation over ramps on adjacent running lines.

A lot of train services in the UK run at a high frequency with fairly homogeneous stock, so in theory at least a unit of the same or similar design should be available somewhere in the vicinity of the incident site to be commandeered to perform a rescue function. I'm aware that in practice this often proves not to be the case. Iskra's idea of a mandatory standardised coupling would probably go a long way to alleviating many of the compatibility issues that we see today.

 

[Meerkat]

I guess the issue is a lack of compulsion.
If there was a standard, say (off the top of my head) ‘a train must not be stranded without power and toilet facilities for more than 30 minutes, and passengers must not be stranded for more than an hour’ then solutions would rapidly be found.
Those solutions could be standardising couplings, better battery power, more on train supplies,rescue trains whatever. At the moment there is little incentive other than delay minutes - which don’t necessarily operate in the interests of the stranded passengers.
Bare minimum should be ‘any train stranded for more than 30 minutes must have more than one member of staff on board (be that a response bod or second crew)’ - that would concentrate the minds of the DOO operators!

 

[gazthomas]

Aren’t there still some spare 442s lying around?

 

[RichJF]

Wouldn't it be easier to mandate standard emergency/mechanical coupling & multiple working systems?

Having a 153 come alongside a failed Pendo or 800 wouldn't be fun. Plus I think the 153 is banned from parts of the 3rd rail network.

 

[Meerkat]

Wouldn't it be easier to mandate standard emergency/mechanical coupling & multiple working systems?

Having a 153 come alongside a failed Pendo or 800 wouldn't be fun. Plus I think the 153 is banned from parts of the 3rd rail network.

probably yes, and an actual priority to get the passengers off a stranded train, rather than just worrying about PPM.
You could have multiple 153s (either semi-permanently or in different places ready to join up for a big job) and if they can’t get all the passengers off they could take priority cases, reducing any overcrowding, and leave food/water etc.
How about back to back HST power cars? Have storage for equipment and plenty of pushing power!

 

[gg1]

How about back to back HST power cars? Have storage for equipment and plenty of pushing power!

A 66 coupled to a suitable converted DVT would be a better choice. More pulling power, more storage space (including a supply of bottled water and bogs in a bag for any trains which are impossible to move) and of course 20 years newer. The DVT could be fitted with a small diesel generator for hotel power.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Combination of plough fitted 37 + tool van packed with every conceivable item needed from jacks to spare parts , coupling adaptors etc + plough fitted 37.

That should do it - bit like the old BR Breakdown train minus a 75 ton crane.

 

[AngusH]

Do what SBB do and have a bunch of specially built trains:


https://company.sbb.ch/en/the-compa...nt/customers/sbb-and-safety/intervention.html

 

[Meerkat]

Do what SBB do and have a bunch of specially built trains:


https://company.sbb.ch/en/the-compa...nt/customers/sbb-and-safety/intervention.html

judging from photo they are just MPVs rather than anything particularly special. Would they have more pulling power than 153s?

 

[AngusH]

Machine translation from one of the pdfs:

The fire and rescue train has a top speed of 100 km / h and can move trailer loads of 940 tons on an incline of 27 per mile.


Not sure how a 153 would compare though. I'm guessing SBB is probably planning for freight breakdowns. (I think they may have locomotives on standby too)

edit:

machine translation of one description:


326 tons of flexibility
The latest generation of fire and rescue trains consists of a tank fire truck, an equipment vehicle and two rescue vehicles. The drive is carried out with two diesel power packs (6 cylinder turbocharged diesel engine from MTU, particle filter, turbo gearbox with built-in retarder and cooling system) according to EU emissions standard IIIA, each with an output of 390 kW via the two rescue vehicles and the equipment vehicle. The fire and rescue train
has a top speed of 100 km / h and can move trailer loads of 940 tons on an incline of 27 per mile. The train's total breathing air supply is 1980,000 standard liters and is stored in 132 storage bottles, which have a volume of 50 liters, at 300 bar pressure. Connections for the supply of breathing air are available at various locations in the interior and on the platforms. Separate respiratory masks or the portable respirator with transmitter and slave hose can be connected to it. All driver's cabins are pressure-tight and have a breathing air supply that creates excess pressure. A control panel for the fire extinguishing technology is also installed in the driver's cab of the equipment vehicle and the tank fire engine.

Technical data rescue vehicles
General data
• Length 22.060 m
• Weight 78,000 kg
• Base vehicle
Manufacturer: Windhoff Bahn- und Anlagentechnik GmbH
• Rescue container
Manufacturer: Dräger Safety AG
• Breathing air system
Manufacturer: Dräger Safety AG
EquipmentRFRZuegvtetrbuandg2 scontainer
• Main room independent of outside air with light
Overpressure, accessible through the lock room
• Space for about 60 people or 40 people and
6 beds
• 20 respiratory protective devices with connected
and slave hose
• stretchers foldable, rescue boards, shovel stretchers,
vacuum mattresses
• Material for immediate life-saving measures
• Connections for the supply of patients with medical oxygen
• medical supplies
• communication devices such as Polycom, GSM-P,
GSM-R and fire service radio
• Escape hoods
• Room monitors for oxygen and
carbon dioxide
• Fire protection equipment for the team (jackets,
Pants, boots, helmets)
• Explosion measuring device
• Thermal cameras
• Fall protection material
Equipment rescue platform
• Stair module
• 2 swivel arms with chain hoist
• 2 fixed LED headlights
• Test and earthing sets for the catenary


edit2:

more photos and description in english:

https://www.windhoff.de/index.php/fahrzeuge/rescue-fire-fighting-salvage-protection/?lang=en

Although the maximum haulage is quoted as only 730 tons. (?)

 

[Meerkat]

Blimey - they aren’t mucking about on the equipment front are they!
They could take on a chemical attack in that!
I note that one bit fights the fire and rescues people whilst the other bit shuttles the passengers to safety. How long would it take to set that up under UK signalling rules, if it’s at all possible - a failed train and one rescue unit in section and a second rescue unit pootling up and down?

 

[Indigo Soup]

Blimey - they aren’t mucking about on the equipment front are they!
They could take on a chemical attack in that!

The Germans and Swiss rarely do half measured when it comes to things like firefighting and public protection. I recently discovered that local mayors have the authority to implement a form of conscription if they don't get enough volunteers for the fire brigade.

When faced with some of the longest rail tunnels in the world, seeing heavy freight and passenger traffic, a substantial fleet of firefighting and rescue trains makes a lot of sense. I believe that in addition to the MPVs, some of the fire brigades also have equipment that can run on rails to reach the scene of an incident.

 

[Meerkat]

I believe that in addition to the MPVs, some of the fire brigades also have equipment that can run on rails to reach the scene of an incident.

Can you imagine getting a safety case for a bunch of hairy arsed firefighters to be allowed to cart their way onto the UK railway!

 

[AngusH]

I was probably being unfair suggesting the SBB model, although I do think it would be the gold standard.

As RLBH noted, they do have particular circumstances noted and I suppose it would be difficult to sell the concept here.

I do think dedicated rescue trains from obsolete stock would be much better than nothing.


Uniform coupling and software compatibility would be also be a useful step.

What if network rail could charge a surcharge if train vehicles can't couple and interwork with the majority of stock on a particular line?

 

[Meerkat]

Just set a standard rescue time.
An intensive suburban operation with one unit type can self rescue pretty quickly.
Anyone else has to show where they would get a compatible rescuer from. It would be up to them to decide on standardising couplings etc, having a spare unit, or hiring in a Thunderbird type deal.

 

[43096]

Blimey - they aren’t mucking about on the equipment front are they!
They could take on a chemical attack in that!
I note that one bit fights the fire and rescues people whilst the other bit shuttles the passengers to safety. How long would it take to set that up under UK signalling rules, if it’s at all possible - a failed train and one rescue unit in section and a second rescue unit pootling up and down?

That's a big part of the issue with the UK railway in these situations - it becomes an exercise in can't do it / form-filling / box ticking and general fannying around. All that goes on and the railway loses sight of the central issue.

 

[30907]

That's a big part of the issue with the UK railway in these situations - it becomes an exercise in can't do it / form-filling / box ticking and general fannying around. All that goes on and the railway loses sight of the central issue.

As a matter of interest, does it actually work better in CH? Certainly I've read horror stories from Germany and France...