What happens if your train departs early?

[tiptoptaff]

I dont think that is correct either, I have had a delay repay claim paid out automatically without having to go through appeals for a missed connection, train 1 minute late resulting in only 4 minutes connection time instead of the 5 minimum, thus paying out on a 1 minute margin for error, I believe delay repay pays out on the absolute minutes recorded with no error


Also plenty of payments for exactly 30 minutes delay again no margin, it would be strange for to program only one scenario having a margin for error and more than one other not to

If it shows late it was late, but showing early doesn't mean it was early.

Essentially, the system can/will/does show a train being earlier than it was, not later. A train 1L could have been 2L, but not RT.

 

[AdamWW]

Don't have a source but there is definitely a threshold for "margin for error" and for example wouldn't pay delay repay if you missed a train showing 1E on Trust. Cannot tell you what that threshold is, though. I suspect, however, you would not get delay repay for missing a train showing 2E

Hmmm.

In my experience there's no margin for error if the official records show a train arriving a minute earlier than it actually did, changing a 60 minute claim to a 30 minute one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2023 ==

If it shows late it was late, but showing early doesn't mean it was early.

Essentially, the system can/will/does show a train being earlier than it was, not later. A train 1L could have been 2L, but not RT.

And yet when I challenged an incorrect arrival time I wasn't told that the system could show a train being earlier than it was. The records showed my delay was 59 minutes and therefore 59 minutes it must have been, never mind what my phone and the station departure boards actually said.

 

[Signal Head]

Should trains ever leave early? No?
Will mistakes happen? Yes
Should the passenger be blamed in such circumstances? Not in my opinion.

I'm sure the old BR rule book (1972 version) had a rule prohibiting trains departing early. No idea if it's still in the opaque mess that forms the current RB!

 

[Tom]

There is only one set of timing data, RTT has a direct feed to it. But it's the same one that all the "internal" systems use

There's actually multiple sets of timing data and they don't even derive from the same core source - some from signalling, some from train-borne systems. And various systems interpret those differently. Even Darwin does its own thing in places, I reckon in principle you could get 4 different primary versions of arrival and departure times from just "official" industry sources. (SMART, GPS, OTMR, ITED, Darwin...) RTT is a fifth (or maybe even sixth?!), obviously, as it's not 'official' but some of our stuff is used for performance stuff inside the industry.

Anyway, I digress. I came here to post the times that the train actually rolled past some signals (or more, registered a step):

• 1N04 was registered as stepping from Y91004 to Y91023 at 07:32:28 (the SMART offset is -29, so it was 073159 in SMART and seconds truncated hence 073100 shown on RTT as we don't have our own set here)
• It rolled past Y80661 to Y80667 at 074904
• It rolled past Y80667 to Y80671 at 075443

The reports at Stevenage on RTT are from our own data collection, the ones at King's Cross are from TRUST because, as @louis97 said, we haven't finished the collection after the resignalling down there. Covid made things take a lot longer...

 

[43066]

If they say doors may shut 40 seconds before departure I don't see how they can reasonably say "Oh well actually we shut them more than 2 minutes early but really you shouldn't have expected us to actually do something as difficult as waiting for the correct departure time and it's your fault for not getting there earlier".

I think common sense applies here.

You’re right that trains shouldn’t leave early, and where that happens something has gone wrong, but for long distance services it isn’t unreasonable to expect people to arrive in good time and board the train with a few minutes to spare. My operator states that train boarding closes two minutes before booked departure, and train details are removed from departure screens at that point.

In reality doors aren’t closed quite that early, but this is done to facilitate an on time departure, and to reduce the risk of PTI incidents. Sadly it’s still very common for people to arrive late for their train and then take it out on the dispatch staff when they’re unable to board.

I've lived somewhere that I commuted from a station a few minutes walk away. I knew how long it took to get there. I usually cut it fine, getting to the platform 1 or 2 minutes before the doors shut. If the train had left early (it never did) I don't see what that should be mine and not the railway's problem.

That approach is fine for commuter trains/the tube - I do the same myself - but not sensible for infrequent long distance services, especially those for which you hold an advanced ticket and therefore need to be on a specific train.

I use RTT a lot though admittedly I only use a small part of the rail network but it's very rare for me to see a train showing as departing early and I certainly haven't ever seen a station where trains are consistently shown as doing so.

I’m fairly obsessive about timings, frequently check RTT reports of trains I’ve worked for interest, and regularly see them shown as departing “-1” when I know we have departed with the second hand more or less on the hour at booked departure time. I certainly wouldn’t take a RTT report as gospel proof that a train has departed or arrived early.

 

[Krokodil]

I’m fairly obsessive about timings, frequently check RTT reports of trains I’ve worked, and regularly see them shown as departing “-1” when I know we have departed with the second hand more or less on the hour at booked departure time. I wouldn’t take a RTT report as gospel proof that a train has departed or arrived early.

Yes, -1 could be RT in reality. -2 isn't likely to be though, at best it'll be -1.

 

[northwichcat]

In my experience there's no margin for error if the official records show a train arriving a minute earlier than it actually did, changing a 60 minute claim to a 30 minute one.

I've had that from both Northern and XC. You arrived 59 minutes late, even though you travelled on a hourly service and the next train was timetabled to be exactly 60 minutes after the one you intended to catch.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2023 ==

I’m fairly obsessive about timings, frequently check RTT reports of trains I’ve worked for interest, and regularly see them shown as departing “-1” when I know we have departed with the second hand more or less on the hour at booked departure time. I certainly wouldn’t take a RTT report as gospel proof that a train has departed or arrived early.

Tbh if you're allowed to close the doors 30 or 40 seconds before departure, there's no point in remaining there because it's 15 seconds before departure time. However, I'd question why Avanti sometimes close doors and then let the train sit there, then refuse to allow passengers to board when they've just arrived on a late connecting service!

 

[43066]

Tbh if you're allowed to close the doors 30 or 40 seconds before departure, there's no point in remaining there because it's 15 seconds before departure time.

I found that T-30 seconds worked very well as a DOO driver. If you hit the door close button at T-30, and followed the correct dispatch process to the letter, you’d finish up with the wheels turning within a few seconds of booked departure.

However, I'd question why Avanti sometimes close doors and then let the train sit there, then refuse to allow passengers to board when they've just arrived on a late connecting service!

I can’t speak for Avanti, but are you sure that’s what happens?

Where I am the dispatch process only commences shortly ahead of departure and, crucially, when we have the road out of the station. There is zero chance of the train sitting there for an extended period with doors closed - that in itself would create a massive safety risk.

Absent a specific instruction from control to wait (generally only given for connections to last trains, or staff connections to prevent another train being cancelled) there’s no way of knowing who might have arrived on a connecting service.

 

[Krokodil]

I always wait until T-15 before boarding the train and closing the local door. I find that closing the passenger doors before T-25 means having to wait.

I can’t speak for Avanti, but are you sure that’s what happens?

I suppose that if a Pendo has arrived with plenty of time to spare the passenger doors will have closed themselves. Therefore when the tip is given they are locked straight away rather than waiting for the hustle alarm to sound and the door to close. The dispatchers are presumably then waiting time before activating the "RA" indicator.

 

[magpiespy]

Some years ago, around 2011, I arrived on the platform at Newton-le-Willows station at 1857 to catch the 1900 to Manchester just in time to see it pull out!

I complained by email to the TOC, Arriva Trains Wales, and they responded with a letter apologising and a voucher for £5, which was a bit less than the cost of a NLW to Manchester single at the time - I think it was about £7.

I was due at the Opera House to watch the Mousetrap. As a result of the early departure, I missed the first half of the play, and (perhaps as a result) identified the killer within 5 minutes of sitting down.

 

[357]

The dispatchers are presumably then waiting time before activating the "RA" indicator.

Why would they do that? As both a dispatcher and DOO driver never waited for time after closing the doors and never had any issues.

 

[Trumpers halt]

Well, this seems to have provoked a lively technical debate! Fwiw, I was more aggrieved by the non-availability of the advertised full English breakfast in First due to the absence of the chef than the early departure!

 

[AdamWW]

That approach is fine for commuter trains/the tube - I do the same myself - but not sensible for infrequent long distance services, especially those for which you hold an advanced ticket and therefore need to be on a specific train.

I agree completely.

Nevertheless, if a train does leave early (allowing for any published rules on doors closing 40 seconds before departure, barriers closing 2 minute early etc.) then I think there's a reasonable argument that turning up on time and missing it is a legitimate delay. After all there are times when people leave plenty of time but that margin gets used up by reasons beyond their control and they get to the platform at the last minute and they should still expect to be able to board if they get there at the prescribed time.

I think common sense applies here.

I think most people would say that common sense is that if you miss a connection and have to catch a train timetabled an hour later than the one you should have caught, you were delayed by an hour.

If a company is going to play by the letter of the rules and deny a 60 minute claim because the connection arrived a minute early (and we know that at least some do) it seems somewhat unreasonable to me to then argue that someone turning up at the advertised departure time and missing their train is to blame because common sense says they should have turned up earlier.

On the other hand if they also apply a common sense rule when it's to the passenger's benefit, maybe that would be more reasonable.

 

[northwichcat]

I can’t speak for Avanti, but are you sure that’s what happens?

Yes. Been on late running Northern services myself. Get into Stockport 1-2 minutes before the London departure. Rush across to platform 2, where the train is already waiting. Doors closed on train and staff telling people on the platform the train is ready to depart and no-one else can board. Yet it's another 10-20 seconds before the dispatcher dispatches it.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So is the metric of 'punctual departure' targets "wagging the dog" here? An example, perhaps, of 'metric fixation' in operation, with the result that train doors end up being shut just that little bit earlier than they perhaps need to be?

 

[Krokodil]

So is the metric of 'punctual departure' targets "wagging the dog" here? An example, perhaps, of 'metric fixation' in operation, with the result that train doors end up being shut just that little bit earlier than they perhaps need to be?

Of course it is. There are no targets for "percentage of connections successfully made".

 

[800001]

Today TPE 9M10 departed Durham 3 minutes early, several customers missed it, after a few calls they have been passed to travel on LNER to York.

As a result 9M10 arrived Darlington 4 minutes early and sat for 6 minutes until booked time.

Link to real train times below

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G67497/2023-11-23/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[30907]

Today TPE 9M10 departed Durham 3 minutes early, several customers missed it, after a few calls they have been passed to travel on LNER to York.

As a result 9M10 arrived Darlington 4 minutes early and sat for 6 minutes until booked time.

Link to real train times below

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G67497/2023-11-23/detailed#allox_id=0

And the reason for the human error(s)? Pathing allowances which were not needed because trains were running out of sequence.

 

[800001]

And the reason for the human error(s)? Pathing allowances which were not needed because trains were running out of sequence.

It is irrelevant that’s trains were running out of sequence, and pathing allowance is Irrelevant, many trains don’t use there allowance and sit and wait time.
The train left 3 minutes early against its booked departure time, and has inconvenienced several people.
Nothing gained by running early as it sat at Darlington until booked time.
Departing early didn’t help any other train!