We should abolish peak restrictions

[AM9]

My point was that they're likely to have more discretionary income than somebody still at school, and doesn't deserve discounts on leisure travel more than the younger group.

Another myth that younger people believe about life in later years. How many schoolchildren have housing, food, clothing and health cost commitments to cover? Remember, not all over '60s are well off despite working longer hours than any children at school.

 

[Hadders]

That's what the peak, off peak, super off peak system has going for it, allowing breaks of journey which set train pricing isn't designed for. It's then a question of if you get refunded or have to pay more now that you're on a different service having broken your journey en-route.

The problem with the current system is that you have overpriced near empty peak services and rammed off peaks where there should be a middle price tier and reduced peak pricing to encourage more people to use these services and spread demand which is what set pricing can do.

I think you’re missing the point that it’s extremely complicated. Take Peterborough to London, how does someone know what the fare’s going to be as it’s not a journey you typically book ahead for. Remember Thameslink also cover this route as well.

 

[RailWonderer]

I think you’re missing the point that it’s extremely complicated. Take Peterborough to London, how does someone know what the fare’s going to be as it’s not a journey you typically book ahead for. Remember Thameslink also cover this route as well.

Complicated for who? Passengers would not necessarily have to pay a difference if the next service they take is priced the same, which it most likely will be. Do you mean complicated for the ORCATS system to process? On the screen you would just select the time of the train you wish to use, and the time of connecting trains so it would be simpler in that respect.

 

[Hadders]

Complicated for who? Passengers would not necessarily have to pay a difference if the next service they take is priced the same, which it most likely will be. Do you mean complicated for the ORCATS system to process? On the screen you would just select the time of the train you wish to use, and the time of connecting trains so it would be simpler in that respect.

I mean complicated for passengers. I don’t care about internal railway allocation of monies.

Are fares going to be dynamic or will the fare for each train be fixed in advance and not change?

If I travel on the wrong train and only have to pay the difference the chances are, on a short distance journey, that tickets wouldn’t be checked and you’d simply get away with it. Everyone would then just buy a ticket for the cheapest train and travel on a more expensive train.

 

[RailWonderer]

Are fares going to be dynamic or will the fare for each train be fixed in advance and not change?

Fixed, not dynamic. Prices would only be able to change annually, or be kept frozen if a political pledge was made.

If I travel on the wrong train and only have to pay the difference the chances are, on a short distance journey, that tickets wouldn’t be checked and you’d simply get away with it. Everyone would then just buy a ticket for the cheapest train and travel on a more expensive train.

Yes they could but if their ticket isn't being checked they won't be buying a new ticket either as is the case now. In a Germanic/Nordic system we would have no ticket barriers and replace gateline staff with more ticket inspectors on trains to do this but we've invested so heavily in barriers on certain routes they won't be paying more for extra ticket inspectors.

 

[smsm1]

I'd love that to happen but who is going to make up the revenue shortfall.

People who travel more often due to the simpler fares.

I for example know someone who doesn't understand how we get such cheap tickets, yet doesn't get Railcards. Could there be people out there who find the current fare system confusing and would travel more if the fares were simpler this making up the shortfall in revenue from removing peak fares and other restrictions?

 

[Hadders]

People who travel more often due to the simpler fares.

I for example know someone who doesn't understand how we get such cheap tickets, yet doesn't get Railcards. Could there be people out there who find the current fare system confusing and would travel more if the fares were simpler this making up the shortfall in revenue from removing peak fares and other restrictions?

There would probbaly be some increase in numbers but I doubt it would be sufficient to pay for itself. You've only got to look at the recent Scotrail trial with Anytime fares to see this. You then have the issue of more passengers requiring additional capacity.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love fares to come down in price but I just don't see it happening.

 

[yorksrob]

There would probbaly be some increase in numbers but I doubt it would be sufficient to pay for itself. You've only got to look at the recent Scotrail trial with Anytime fares to see this. You then have the issue of more passengers requiring additional capacity.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love fares to come down in price but I just don't see it happening.

This would be the recent Scotrail trial the took place when the train service had been slashed for various reasons, and was reported as being only 10% off breaking even at a time when passenger usage has been recovering from the pandemic - that trial ?

 

[Meerkat]

With these ever increasing issues of the validity of off peak tickets, I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that simplifying fares by having a very limited set of ticket types. Advance fares for a specific train that are cheaper to encourage use of quieter trains, and single/return fares that are valid on a specific day or for longer distances few days so you can have break of journey on the way. The single and return fares would be set at around the current off peak fare prices (ie same as the recent Scotrail trial but done nationally).

How would that work in commuterland where there aren’t (and often couldn’t be) checks on the trains?
off peak fares offer a discount to fill trains between the peaks. As that is less of an issue now off peak fares should be raised.
The problem with peak restrictions is the lack of information.
A ticket machine knows you are buying a ticket for today and your departure station so why can’t it say “not valid on trains leaving before 10am or return between 4 and 7“. Ditto for journey planners.
I (mis)used Super Off Peak tickets for years as I assumed Saturday must be super off peak, the ticket machine didn’t say otherwise (and staff just waved it through when it didn’t work the barriers!).

 

[miklcct]

It is not workable due to capacity. My proposal is to simplify the restriction such that the peak period is uniform across the country.

A blanket restriction of off-peak ticket not valid for boarding between 06:30 - 09:29 and 16:00 - 18:59 will do.

 

[miklcct]

Take Stevenage to London. The situation you describe is not a million miles away from what happens. Replace 09:00 with 10:00 and have restrictions that apply Monday to Friday and that's basically what exists already. Before anyone points it out these aren't the exact restrictions but it's close enough for the purposes of this discussion.

Now, what happens if I'm making a longer journey. Say Stevenage to Bristol. What peak restrictions should apply?

The restriction should apply on every single leg of your journey, just like the current tickets in the expanded Oval area do. If one leg is peak and another leg is off-peak, you should buy two tickets.

That's what the peak, off peak, super off peak system has going for it, allowing breaks of journey which set train pricing isn't designed for. It's then a question of if you get refunded or have to pay more now that you're on a different service having broken your journey en-route.

The problem with the current system is that you have overpriced near empty peak services and rammed off peaks where there should be a middle price tier and reduced peak pricing to encourage more people to use these services and spread demand which is what set pricing can do.

In this case the price differential should decrease, but still remains. Advance tickets can be used for very quiet trains (such as those running very early morning / late night) to fill them up.

 

[smsm1]

Wouldn't removing railcards hit revenue from leisure travel ?

Just abolish all railcards in general. Instead reduce ticket prices to 1/3 of the normal fare.

I'd love that to happen but who is going to make up the revenue shortfall.

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The man at seat 61 has posted a thread suggesting getting rid of Railcards (or possibly for longer journeys including them automatically) highlighting that they discourage people from travelling.

Having automatic group discounts (German regional day tickets have this) would be far simpler and would encourage more people to travel.

One of the things I've found common in Germany is that once you are traveling over about an hour or two you end up being used with the regional day ticket even for a single or return journey. Should we have more regional day tickets?

Around 20 years ago growing up in Edinburgh, Lothian Buses has 2 day tickets. One for all day and another for after the morning peak that started at 0930. I suspect many other bus operators had similar yet they have many years ago simplified things and gone to daily tickets. Some have more recently introduced a cheaper evening ticket, however the bundles of day tickets still work out cheaper. On the removal of the off-peak it was based on the time you boarded the vehicle, and there were issues of people holding up buses at 0930 so the clock would tick over to the cheaper day ticket.

In terms of busier trains due to off peak fares trials, I see that as a good thing and shows there is demand for train travel if the fares are cheap enough. There needs to be the investment though to increase the number of train services and length of trains. Modal shift needs to happen away from the car. The current rail network isn't fit for purpose if even modest increases in passenger numbers cause trains to be full.

 

[yorksrob]

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The man at seat 61 has posted a thread suggesting getting rid of Railcards (or possibly for longer journeys including them automatically) highlighting that they discourage people from travelling.

Having automatic group discounts (German regional day tickets have this) would be far simpler and would encourage more people to travel.

One of the things I've found common in Germany is that once you are traveling over about an hour or two you end up being used with the regional day ticket even for a single or return journey. Should we have more regional day tickets?

Around 20 years ago growing up in Edinburgh, Lothian Buses has 2 day tickets. One for all day and another for after the morning peak that started at 0930. I suspect many other bus operators had similar yet they have many years ago simplified things and gone to daily tickets. Some have more recently introduced a cheaper evening ticket, however the bundles of day tickets still work out cheaper. On the removal of the off-peak it was based on the time you boarded the vehicle, and there were issues of people holding up buses at 0930 so the clock would tick over to the cheaper day ticket.

In terms of busier trains due to off peak fares trials, I see that as a good thing and shows there is demand for train travel if the fares are cheap enough. There needs to be the investment though to increase the number of train services and length of trains. Modal shift needs to happen away from the car. The current rail network isn't fit for purpose if even modest increases in passenger numbers cause trains to be full.

Number one, how exactly do railcards "discourage people from travelling". This is sclobloks as years of marketing research from years of railcards has demonstrated.

Number two, group discounts are sod all use to those of us who don't tend to travel around in groups. Yet more discrimination against those of us singletons who don't travel around in groups.

Why not go the whole hog and just make single people of working age pay everyone elses fare and have done with it.

 

[smsm1]

Number one, how exactly do railcards "discourage people from travelling". This is sclobloks as years of marketing research from years of railcards has demonstrated.

Number two, group discounts are sod all use to those of us who don't tend to travel around in groups. Yet more discrimination against those of us singletons who don't travel around in groups.

Why not go the whole hog and just make single people of working age pay everyone elses fare and have done with it.

The Railcard discourages travel due to the high cost for people without the Railcard, don't know they existed, or don't understand how they work. They are a huge complication.

Group discounts are needed to encourage public transport use compared to travelling by car. If you are traveling by car the incremental cost of additional people is minimal. Not the case when travelling by public transport unless there is some form of group discounts.

As electric vehicles become more common, public transport fares will be ever more expensive in comparison, so at some point there'll need to be some form of reset.

 

[JonathanH]

The Railcard discourages travel due to the high cost for people without the Railcard, don't know they existed, or don't understand how they work. They are a huge complication.

You are implying that fares are kept artificially high because the operators price them knowing some people are entitled to a discount. Is there any evidence for that statement?

 

[yorksrob]

The Railcard discourages travel due to the high cost for people without the Railcard, don't know they existed, or don't understand how they work. They are a huge complication.

Group discounts are needed to encourage public transport use compared to travelling by car. If you are traveling by car the incremental cost of additional people is minimal. Not the case when travelling by public transport unless there is some form of group discounts.

As electric vehicles become more common, public transport fares will be ever more expensive in comparison, so at some point there'll need to be some form of reset.

And there we have it.

As usual, everything is designed to benefit and pander to the motorist, while those of us non drivers get screwed again.

You forget those of us who would like a railcard but for whom the industry doesn't provide one in your first sentence. Why not increase usage by giving us a railcard for a change.

 

[Meerkat]

It is not workable due to capacity. My proposal is to simplify the restriction such that the peak period is uniform across the country.

A blanket restriction of off-peak ticket not valid for boarding between 06:30 - 09:29 and 16:00 - 18:59 will do.

But the peak isn't uniform across the country, being affected by the jobs people are commuting for, capacity, and how far people are commuting from.
What about a cross London trip on Thameslink - could board before 16:00 and then be in the peak coming out of the other side.
Just needs better advertising. On the ticket machines when you buy the thing for a start - "restrictions apply to this ticket" is no use when you are at the machine about to pay.

 

[lachlan]

And there we have it.

As usual, everything is designed to benefit and pander to the motorist, while those of us non drivers get screwed again.

You forget those of us who would like a railcard but for whom the industry doesn't provide one in your first sentence. Why not increase usage by giving us a railcard for a change.

It shouldn't be an either or discussion. It would be interesting to know how much travel is with a railcard and what the "subsidy" is from other passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the peak isn't uniform across the country, being affected by the jobs people are commuting for, capacity, and how far people are commuting from.

It's not, though XC do seem to have managed close to total consistency without too much complaint (just a blanket 0930, though unless you're going to really punitively price your Anytimes you can't do single fare pricing with only a morning restriction - XC as things stand still have the traditional "return almost the same price as single" policy off peak). It can be smoothed by way of Advances and by varying the Anytime-Off Peak gap (some routes have no Off Peaks, just reasonably-priced Anytimes).

While I like single fare pricing generally, there is something to be said, provided Advance availability is good including on the day, for just having Anytime, Off Peak and Advance, with traditional return fare pricing and Off Peak just from 0930. It is definitely simple, even if it (like any other peak/off peak split) has some anomalies.

 

[miklcct]

It's not, though XC do seem to have managed close to total consistency without too much complaint (just a blanket 0930, though unless you're going to really punitively price your Anytimes you can't do single fare pricing with only a morning restriction - XC as things stand still have the traditional "return almost the same price as single" policy off peak). It can be smoothed by way of Advances and by varying the Anytime-Off Peak gap (some routes have no Off Peaks, just reasonably-priced Anytimes).

While I like single fare pricing generally, there is something to be said, provided Advance availability is good including on the day, for just having Anytime, Off Peak and Advance, with traditional return fare pricing and Off Peak just from 0930. It is definitely simple, even if it (like any other peak/off peak split) has some anomalies.

Return fare pricing is a scum and needs to go as soon as possible. It penalises journeys if I want to travel out by train and return by a coach.

I have booked a journey to Oxford later this month on a route with hourly frequency (Wembley - Oxford). If the train is cancelled I will not hesitate to cancel my train ticket and take the Oxford Tube (from Uxbridge), in such case I won't take the train back even when the frequency is half-hourly in the afternoon (due to event extras) because of the pricing penalty.

The form of pricing I support is peak restrictions in both morning and evening in the TfL model.

But the peak isn't uniform across the country, being affected by the jobs people are commuting for, capacity, and how far people are commuting from.
What about a cross London trip on Thameslink - could board before 16:00 and then be in the peak coming out of the other side.
Just needs better advertising. On the ticket machines when you buy the thing for a start - "restrictions apply to this ticket" is no use when you are at the machine about to pay.

This may be a hole, but how about a total prohibition between 07:30 - 09:29 and 17:00 - 18:59 instead, shortening the peak period by an hour but prohibit all travel within the peak (and update TfL's rule to be the same as well)? In this case if you use an off-peak ticket, you are required to break your journey to avoid the peak hour totally.

 

[smsm1]

You are implying that fares are kept artificially high because the operators price them knowing some people are entitled to a discount. Is there any evidence for that statement?

No

I'm suggesting that Railcard make the dates system more complicated and discourages travel by train as people are high fares. More people would travel by train if fares were cheaper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No

I'm suggesting that Railcard make the dates system more complicated and discourages travel by train as people are high fares. More people would travel by train if fares were cheaper.

I think I would agree with the idea of abolishing the Family and Two Together Railcards and all "accompanied" discounts on Railcards, to be replaced with GroupSave discount being available on all TOCs/fares and taken down to a minimum of two passengers (adult or child), with the Family Railcard discounts applying to children in such a group. There would also be no maximum group size; this would replace all group discounts. (The maximum is silly anyway, nothing stops you buying multiple groups in separate transactions).

There could then be a Railcard which offers a third off for one passenger travelling alone. This would have one standard set of restrictions, and be available at different price points, the cheaper ones for young people, retired people and the other demographics that currently get one, but also at a higher price (say £200ish per year, paid by monthly direct debit) for anyone who wanted one.

 

[Bald Rick]

It shouldn't be an either or discussion. It would be interesting to know how much travel is with a railcard and what the "subsidy" is from other passengers.

less than a quarter of revenue is railcard related. Almost all of which is the age related railcards.

 

[Statto]

I would scrap all afternoon "peak" restrictions, everywhere. And, yes, I know they've been in place for a long time in London. But too many people don't understand them properly, a significant number of whom are railway staff.

In Northern-land they're a pain, and people are given penalty fares when they should be excessed. Maybe that'll improve now there's been some publicity, but I'm not convinced.

The alternative is the London approach in which you pay as you go and there's no major issue. So introducing the equivalent of London's system in other places where there are afternoon peak restrictions might be OK. But it's taking for ever, it's promised repeatedly but just doesn't happen.

Morning peak restrictions are well-established and I'm happy with the idea of paying more to travel before, say, 09:30.

I do agree getting rid of the afternoon peak restrictions, the afternoon peak on AWC from Euston is 15.00 to 18.45, one of the AWC trains departs Euston 18.43 (1F34 Euston to Liverpool) but i think off peak tickets are barred from that train, daft thing is LNWR only off peak tickets can be used throughout the afternoon peak.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do agree getting rid of the afternoon peak restrictions, the afternoon peak on AWC from Euston is 15.00 to 18.45, one of the AWC trains departs Euston 18.43 (1F34 Euston to Liverpool) but i think off peak tickets are barred from that train, daft thing is LNWR only off peak tickets can be used throughout the afternoon peak.

That's because WMT Off Peak tickets outside the Oval area are a "Business Saver" style ticket at a higher price. WMT has a three step walk up fare structure, Avanti has a two step one.

Before LNER went mad, they had a similar approach - a less restricted Off Peak at a higher price and a more restricted Super Off Peak at a lower one. GWR still do.

 

[yorksrob]

It shouldn't be an either or discussion. It would be interesting to know how much travel is with a railcard and what the "subsidy" is from other passengers.

It shouldn't be, but always seems to be.

 

[lachlan]

It shouldn't be, but always seems to be.

Indeed - it's a bit of a moot point without insight into just how much money is saved by railcard users. I suspect it's not that much relatively speaking, based on Bald Rick's response above.

unfortunately as I no longer have Twitter I can't read Man in Seat 61's argument.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed - it's a bit of a moot point without insight into just how much money is saved by railcard users. I suspect it's not that much relatively speaking, based on Bald Rick's response above.

unfortunately as I no longer have Twitter I can't read Man in Seat 61's argument.

Neither can I. It really is a poor platform for disseminating public information/theories.