Viktor Orban's Hungary

[Cloud Strife]

Inspired by the discussion elsewhere with @nw1 , I thought I'd start a thread on this.

I was referring to Orban himself, and his Fidesz party, having these attitudes, not the Hungarian people.

The impression I've got from people I know who have visited Hungary is that the people were friendly, but the government, to my eyes, is much in the same vein as Le Pen, Salvini, Erdogan, and so on.

One thing I'd like to point out is that Fidesz have a very interesting and corrupt method of governing the country. Let's take a random town in Hungary: Mezőtúr. It's two hours from Budapest by road, and is a typical small Hungarian town of around 20,000 people. A quick look shows that one of the few big employers in town is FF Fémfeldolgozó Zrt, and they received nearly 270m HUF (around 570,000 GBP) from the government a couple of years back. Now, how Fidesz work is essentially like a mafia. You'll get money, but in return, you have to ensure the absolute obedience of the employees. That means agreeing to government propaganda in the workplace, it means not supporting anything from the political opposition, and also making sure that your employees don't get involved with opposition politics. If someone does get involved with opposition politics (or in their family), then you have to get rid of them in order to send a message.

It also turns out that the mayor of the town is/was linked to the company in some way, and which party is the mayor from? Fidesz, of course. Of course, if the company tries to work outside the realm of Fidesz, then they can expect tax inspections, labour inspections and general high levels of harassment. If you own a factory, what do you do? Do you collaborate, or risk losing everything through the Fidesz-appointed judiciary?

The end result? You have the same story all over Hungary. Then you add the non-stop brainwashing, and you've created the situation where 90% of rural Hungary is hopelessly dependent on Fidesz. Fidesz themselves also make it very clear: either vote for Fidesz, or your municipality will be starved of funding. Given how poor rural Hungary is, people know that there's really no choice: vote Fidesz or you won't have a job.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2022 ==

Another thing to add: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62305094

EU energy ministers have agreed countries will cut gas use in case Russia halts supplies.
EU members, locked in negotiations since the idea was suggested last week, have now agreed to a voluntary of 15% between August and March.

All fine and well, and reasonable on the part of the EU. But along came Hungary:

Hungary opposed the deal, two EU officials told Reuters.

I truly cannot understand why the Hungarians cannot see what Orban is doing to their country.

 

[Basil Jet]

It sounds like you're describing the way Obama and Biden run America. I've never heard Orban described as a socialist, so I'm finding it very hard to believe the above.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

It sounds like you're describing the way Obama and Biden run America. I've never heard Orban described as a socialist, so I'm finding it very hard to believe the above.

Have you been there? There are actual government-sponsored billboards devoted to their obsession with supposed 'puppet master' George Soros. It's bizarre.

I truly cannot understand why the Hungarians cannot see what Orban is doing to their country.

I guess part of it is that all major media outlets have either been purchased by investors loyal to Fidesz, or shut down if they refused to repeat Fidesz talking points. At one point e-mails were leaked where editors openly refer to needing to consult Fidesz on what they are allowed to say on particular issues.

Subsequently a non-profit "Press and Media Foundation" was set up, headed by a former Fidesz governemt minister. Many of these investors decided to give the businesses they had bought away for free to the foundation. How charitable and public-spirited of them! The foundation now controls hundreds of media outlets.

 

[nw1]

Inspired by the discussion elsewhere with @nw1 , I thought I'd start a thread on this.



One thing I'd like to point out is that Fidesz have a very interesting and corrupt method of governing the country. Let's take a random town in Hungary: Mezőtúr. It's two hours from Budapest by road, and is a typical small Hungarian town of around 20,000 people. A quick look shows that one of the few big employers in town is FF Fémfeldolgozó Zrt, and they received nearly 270m HUF (around 570,000 GBP) from the government a couple of years back. Now, how Fidesz work is essentially like a mafia. You'll get money, but in return, you have to ensure the absolute obedience of the employees. That means agreeing to government propaganda in the workplace, it means not supporting anything from the political opposition, and also making sure that your employees don't get involved with opposition politics. If someone does get involved with opposition politics (or in their family), then you have to get rid of them in order to send a message.

It also turns out that the mayor of the town is/was linked to the company in some way, and which party is the mayor from? Fidesz, of course. Of course, if the company tries to work outside the realm of Fidesz, then they can expect tax inspections, labour inspections and general high levels of harassment. If you own a factory, what do you do? Do you collaborate, or risk losing everything through the Fidesz-appointed judiciary?

The end result? You have the same story all over Hungary. Then you add the non-stop brainwashing, and you've created the situation where 90% of rural Hungary is hopelessly dependent on Fidesz. Fidesz themselves also make it very clear: either vote for Fidesz, or your municipality will be starved of funding. Given how poor rural Hungary is, people know that there's really no choice: vote Fidesz or you won't have a job.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2022 ==

Another thing to add: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62305094



All fine and well, and reasonable on the part of the EU. But along came Hungary:



I truly cannot understand why the Hungarians cannot see what Orban is doing to their country.

It sounds even worse than I had understood (possible antisemitism - though whether it's actual antisemitism or merely a hatred of Soros, I've never got to the bottom of; authoritarianism; and an extreme hardline approach to immigrants were the things I had associated with Orban).

Certainly that mafia-style way of running the country sounds really frightening.

Maybe Hungary's government should be threatened with economic sanctions, or forced ejection from the EU, unless things change. It's certainly no way for a western "democracy" to behave, and sounds like a dictatorship in all but name.

 

[Cloud Strife]

It sounds like you're describing the way Obama and Biden run America. I've never heard Orban described as a socialist, so I'm finding it very hard to believe the above.

It is completely incomparable. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans operate a mafia state in the way that Hungary is run. Even in deepest Republican country in the most hardcore Republican town, no one is going to use the power of the State against your private business for your political stance. Same goes for Democrats-run cities in Democrat-run states.

Orban is very much socialist in terms of state control of the economy.

Have you been there? There are actual government-sponsored billboards devoted to their obsession with supposed 'puppet master' George Soros. It's bizarre.

I suspect not. But the Soros obsession is almost textbook 1984, even down to the strong anti-Semitic tones. It is truly bizarre, and Hungary is full of similar government-sponsored billboards with the latest Fidesz obsession.

At one point e-mails were leaked where editors openly refer to needing to consult Fidesz on what they are allowed to say on particular issues.

Yes, this is absolutely widespread. It goes back to my first post, where someone trying to set up a local news portal will find that they're locked out of any kind of sponsorship. Fidesz are in control of most local councils, but what they've also done is starve opposition-controlled councils of EU funding. The money has been rather diverted to Fidesz-controlled councils, who then award ridiculous projects to Fidesz-controlled companies. That's why the EU Recovery Plan hasn't been implemented in Hungary, because the EU has demanded strict controls over the use of the money to avoid the same thing happening again.

The problem for Orban right now is that he badly needs to find cash. The Hungarian budget was blown to pieces through various acts of populism, some of which have now been reversed. For instance, there were caps on the price of energy for consumers, but now Hungary will let companies charge what they want while imposing a windfall tax. It's also worth pointing out that public services in Hungary are falling to pieces: schools and hospitals are particularly underfunded and in a state of crisis.

But this is also the problem with Fidesz in general. What they do is quite predictable: large financial bribes before elections, blow the budget to pieces, then impose austerity after the election for 2-3 years so that they repair the budget. Then the next election comes around, and here's Uncle Viktor with a large fiscal transfer to people. It's very interesting that the latest fiscal transfers and subsidies barely lasted 6 months before being immediately cut, but it's clear that without EU money, Fidesz have no way of actually continuing to pay them.

Something else that's worth pointing out: Fidesz granted (en masse) Hungarian citizenship to the large Hungarian minority in Romania. The Hungarian minority there is somewhat isolated from the Romanian majority, but as a result, they're also incredibly loyal to Orban. We're speaking 1.2m people, with a substantial amount of them holding Hungarian identity documents. From what I remember, he won (in somewhat dubious circumstances) over 93% of the vote among Hungarians living abroad, which translated to an additional seat for Fidesz on the national lists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Hungarian_parliamentary_election#Anomalies_over_postal_ballots explains more about this:

Transtelex.ro, a Hungarian-language Romanian news portal revealed all possible frauds allowed by the legally undeveloped system. For instance, the registration process was not secure, as the data allowed a voter to register on behalf of another person and retrieve voting documents to any address. In the case of identification sheets, it was not possible to determine with absolute certainty whether it had actually been completed by the person whose name appears on it. As a result of a change in legislation in 2021, it was possible to return the vote without the posted security sealed envelope, therefore, there was no guarantee that the ballot paper had not been replaced.

though whether it's actual antisemitism or merely a hatred of Soros, I've never got to the bottom of

Neither. Orban is *incredibly* intelligent, and I suspect that it's a simple political calculation. Rural Hungarians have a huge problem with history and a sense of injustice, and Soros makes a very convenient scapegoat when he has little to no involvement in Hungary anyway.

Certainly that mafia-style way of running the country sounds really frightening.

It's essentially even worse than Commnuism, because at least the Communists didn't have ridiculously wealthy businessmen openly flouting their wealth through their connections to the First Secretary of the day. The Communists also ensured basic public services, which have completely fallen to pieces under Fidesz.

One other very strange thing about Hungary is how the country is governed. For instance, education (which is a separate ministry in most countries) is under the Interior Ministry. The Orban government seems mostly about construction and trade, which fits the general Fidesz view of the world: funnel large amounts of cash into construction companies, which then return the favour to the government in some way. Corruption is widespread in Hungary, and there's solid evidence of the money flowing ultimately to the pockets of Orban and other high profile Fidesz members.

As for the EU, if you ask me, Hungary is a grave danger to both NATO and the EU.

 

[Yew]

Orban is very much socialist in terms of state control of the economy.

is that a tenet of socialism? My understanding was that is was “public ownership” which could as easily be a cooperative.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Budapest and Hungary were regarded as a bit more attractive than the other Ostblock countries until 1989, people who could not go to the Med went to Balaton, how could it come to the situation now?

Does the Hungarian language (very different from languages in surrounding countries) have to do with the situation? Are Hungarians less able to access information from outside, or do many speak/understand English, German, French etc?