Urgent help! Fined for using a ticket on the wrong date.

[AlterEgo]

Hi, Paul. Thanks for the help!

Just want to clarify something. In my appeal, should I state that my fine was issued at Manchester when it should have been issued in Crewe?

Sorry if this seems like a dumb question - I have no experience with any of this

No, it shouldn’t have been issued because:

- the fare element is invented. Entirely unlawful
- the penalty fare should be for £20 as you travelled on TfW
- the penalty fare should have covered you from Crewe to Manchester only, not from London, in any case.

 

[John R]

The point is that TfW has a lower penalty fare than on the rest of the network. And it could only be issued for the last part of your journey, which commenced at Crewe.

Penalty Fares | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

TfW Penalty Fare Zone​

We know that the vast majority of our customers pay their fares in full. It’s only a small minority who try to avoid paying their way. Penalty Fares are aimed at deterring unfair behaviour.

The TfW Penalty Fare Zone has expanded across more of our network, if you travel without a valid ticket, or without tapping in (where Pay As You Go is live), you may have to pay a Penalty Fare (£20 or twice the full single fare applicable to your journey, whichever is greater).

This penalty may increase to £100 in the future (as currently applicable to Penalty Fare Zones operated by other train companies as well as TfW services between Shrewsbury and Birmingham International).

 

[WesternLancer]

I

Hi, Paul. Thanks for the help!

Just want to clarify something. In my appeal, should I state that my fine was issued at Manchester when it should have been issued in Crewe?

Sorry if this seems like a dumb question - I have no experience with any of this

would urge you to draft your appeal then post the draft here before you submit it so people can edit and correct anything you get wrong. People will happily do that.

As I suspect you can see it’s a bit complicated to get the wording spot on v

 

[rwea90]

Hi all, thanks for the help. I have written a very rough draft, any edits and corrections would be much appreciated:

On the 11th of July at 15:25, I was issued a fine at Manchester Piccadilly. This was because I had mistakenly travelled from Euston to Crewe and from Crewe to Manchester with a ticket intended for the 18th of July.

I was charged with a fine of £50.01. I am appealing this fine because I travelled with Transport for Wales within a yellow zone. As such, if I am to be charged, it would be no more than £20.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2025 ==

Hi everyone, I think I may have encountered another problem.

My fine was issued by Northern Trains, but I traveled with Transport for Wales as in line with my ticket, which is attached above in this thread.

 

[signed]

My fine was issued by Northern Trains, but I traveled with Transport for Wales as in line with my ticket, which is attached above in this thread.

That's only one of the problems

On the letter, the second line reads bad, I will let the more knowledgeable folks here help you further.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi all, thanks for the help. I have written a very rough draft, any edits and corrections would be much appreciated:

On the 11th of July at 15:25, I was issued a fine at Manchester Piccadilly. This was because I had mistakenly travelled from Euston to Crewe and from Crewe to Manchester with a ticket intended for the 18th of July.

I was charged with a fine of £50.01. I am appealing this fine because I travelled with Transport for Wales within a yellow zone. As such, if I am to be charged, it would be no more than £20.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2025 ==

Scrap all that. You're dealing with appeals assessors who are - probably by design - not very good at their job, and so they need to have their blessed little hands held all the time, and you need to sit them on your knee and make them read the Regulations with you, putting your finger under every word and making sure they understand. (They're supposed to know and understand them but evidence suggests they actually don't, or often regard them as optional if you don't mention them)

I am appealing regarding notice (ref) which was issued to me on arrival at Manchester Piccadilly, after I had alighted a Transport for Wales service from Crewe.

The penalty fare is unlawful and must be rescinded. Of key importance is the fact I alighted from a TfW service, which does not have a £100 penalty fare regime. The company's penalty fare policy is laid out here: https://tfw.wales/ways-to-travel/rail/travel-information/penalty-fares - note that the penalty fare in the yellow zone, including where I boarded their train in Crewe, is £20 or twice the full single fare, whichever is greater. As per the Railways (Penalty Fares Regulations) 2018:

9.—(1) [Subject to paragraph (1A),] Where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of that penalty fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable, whichever is greater.

Note in particular this £20 penalty fare remains law, and this (Welsh) company's policy, as it is only English penalty fares affected by the amendment to the Regulations in Paragraph 1A.

The issuance of a £100 Penalty Fare therefore represents not only an enormous overcharge, it is also unlawful under the Regulations. This is notwithstanding other faults which would defeat this Penalty Fare under other parts of the Regulations, such as the wrong origin for where I boarded the train (London instead of Crewe), and the invention of a fictitious £0.01 fare element to justify the issuance of this unlawful penalty fare.

I look forward to a favourable outcome.

Kind regards

Often you have to get to the third appeal to find an independent assessor who doesn't just uphold the penalty fare by default, but this one I reckon is 50/50 you'll get overturned at first appeal.

Hi everyone, I think I may have encountered another problem.

My fine was issued by Northern Trains, but I traveled with Transport for Wales as in line with my ticket, which is attached above in this thread.

That's not a problem and not relevant to your appeal.

 

[Starmill]

The law only prevents a £100 Penalty Fare at present from stations in Wales I think so take care with that argument. It's currently only Transport for Wales policy that works this way. This point is a bit of a distraction but just take care of wording it. Also the last time I was at Crewe the Penalty Fare posters didn't mention Transport for Wales.

 

[John R]

The law only prevents a £100 Penalty Fare at present from stations in Wales I think so take care with that argument. It's currently only Transport for Wales policy that works this way. This point is a bit of a distraction but just take care of wording it. Also the last time I was at Crewe the Penalty Fare posters didn't mention Transport for Wales.

True, but the page I linked is unequivocal that the £100 is not applicable to the route to Manchester, in that the route is shown in yellow, whereas £100 routes are shown in red.

I would definitely save and print or pdf a copy of that page if I were the OP (and link to it in any appeal).

 

[AlterEgo]

The law only prevents a £100 Penalty Fare at present from stations in Wales I think so take care with that argument. It's currently only Transport for Wales policy that works this way. This point is a bit of a distraction but just take care of wording it. Also the last time I was at Crewe the Penalty Fare posters didn't mention Transport for Wales.

Do you have a picture of the sign?

 

[Starmill]

Do you have a picture of the sign?

I'm afraid I didn't take one.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm afraid I didn't take one.

Where is it? I’m passing on Monday and will try to see it.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think what the op needs is someone to write the basis of the appeal wording

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2025 ==

All looks good. As OP seems unfamiliar with the appeal process, perhaps we can step them through what they need to do - who they need to contact, what precisely they need to say, when their deadline is and so on?

Ie exactly as suggested here v helpfully.

 

[saismee]

I think what the op needs is someone to write the basis of the appeal wording

@AlterEgo has already given a guide for how to write the appeal in post #36. It's in the quote box.

 

[WesternLancer]

@AlterEgo has already given a guide for how to write the appeal in post #36. It's in the quote box.

My Apols i missed that. Looks v helpful.

 

[fandroid]

@AlterEgo has already given a guide for how to write the appeal in post #36. It's in the quote box.

Don't forget to replace "Arriva Trains Wales" with "Transport for Wales"

 

[soccermad]

Pleas remember it is NOT a fine , it is a penalty fare and needs to be called that in your appeal

Good Luck and hope they see sense

 

[NorthernSystem]

This is not possible with the software that was used. The inspector cannot just make up a random amount to charge, they input the journey details and select the relevant fare.

I suspect the fare option was listed as £0.01 on their machine as it clearly isn't allowable to issue a Penalty Fare for this journey, so it's a reminder not to do so. A little like the £9999 fares seen on BRFares. In this case, the idiot who's issued it has ignored that.

This is probably the worst example of a Penalty Fare I have ever seen.

Unfortunately the option to enter a applicable fare in free text is available on TIPS. With my TOC, if the station that the notice is being issued to (Granted, my role doesn't issue PFN's) is not within the set of stations served by the TOC, there is a dropdown that allows to switch from "Set Station List" to "All Stations List", however TIPS doesn't hold the fares data for all journeys, so lookup on the applicable fare is needed.

 

[185]

Seems to be a lot of focus on the TFW Penalty Fare of £20, but surely the LNR (WM) Penalty of £100 was also relevant? Was there scan data available to the inspector to substantiate LNR usage, or did the passenger admit to coming from London when questioned? Northern issuing a Penalty Fare for this, rather than the alternative, running straight to penalty fakes or prosecutions like they normally do is perhaps a step in the right direction.