• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

UPFNs - pay and appeal?

Status
Not open for further replies.

penaltyfines

Member
Joined
4 Sep 2010
Messages
298
The UPFN will not be issued unless the Guard/RPI feels there is good grounds to do so. The argument is whether the ticket is valid or not. All the UPFN is saying when you sign is that you have understood the conditions (including appeal). Refusal to sign it would be grounds for calling BTP and doing it the hard way, IMHO. The argument could then be continued with the benefit of legal advice!

From this thread, I thought that by signing an UPFN you are agreeing to pay within 10 days, regardless of appeal?

I agree the theory is that you only get a UPFN if they have 'good grounds', but by virtue of the fact that some UPFN appeals succeed, there are times where good grounds turn out to be, in fact, incorrect.

So in these cases, I presume the customer is perfectly entitled to just state their name and address and tell the guard to be on their way, and not sign anything, if they are absolutely confident that their ticket is in fact valid (the pre-req of this hypothetical scenario)?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

RPI

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2010
Messages
3,370
If someone refuses to sign a UFN you just do a TIR/MG11, the customer was given the option to accept an appealable "bill" but refused, IF then it turns out that the TOC was correct then a prosecution COULD be forthcoming.
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
From this thread, I thought that by signing an UPFN you are agreeing to pay within 10 days, regardless of appeal?

I agree the theory is that you only get a UPFN if they have 'good grounds', but by virtue of the fact that some UPFN appeals succeed, there are times where good grounds turn out to be, in fact, incorrect.

So in these cases, I presume the customer is perfectly entitled to just state their name and address and tell the guard to be on their way, and not sign anything, if they are absolutely confident that their ticket is in fact valid (the pre-req of this hypothetical scenario)?
They can, but the guard would be equally entitled to escalate up to BTP involvement or MG11.
 

RPI

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2010
Messages
3,370
provided the customer has provided their name and address then no offence is committed if they don't sign it, BTP wouldn't be able to do anything unless they were abusive etc.
 

OwlMan

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2008
Messages
3,206
They can, but the guard would be equally entitled to escalate up to BTP involvement or MG11.
And if the customer is right and the guard/RPI wrong, charges of wasting police time / perverting the course of Justice?

Peter
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,606
Location
Yorkshire
And if the customer is right and the guard/RPI wrong, charges of wasting police time / perverting the course of Justice?

Peter
I'd hope so, certainly in the Derby/Nottingham example. But probably just a verbal warning. More likely though a telling off by managers for incurring delay minutes. (Guards can get told off by management when a delay for BTP is justified, so I'd imagine they'd certainly get told off when it isn't!).
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
The use of the word 'Appeal' in this context seems troublesome and misleading to me, and some of our concerns about the UPFN flow from that unusual use.

The word 'Appeal' is used in legal circles (whether strictly as in the Court of Appeal or any other request to re-consider a matter) where it is always used to refer to an Appeal to an independent body (a Court, an Adjudicator, a Tribunal etc).
You wouldn't expect for example, that, following a dispute between the 2 parties to a contract who fall out over their business, that the aggreived party simply Appeals to the other party! They'd Complain to each other, but they'd Appeal to an independent body.
So, what does the rail industry think its doing by setting T&Cs, producing its own policies, and, in the event of a dispute, expecting to manage the Appeal process against itself?
That self-appointed authority to manage Appeals would be a good subject for a Judicial Review.

Maybe it is just a word, and the TOCs would claim that they don't purport to assume any judicial role by using the word 'Appeal'; maybe they'd argue that it is simply an informal complaints management system which has aquired the name. I hope that's all that's intended!

As for making payment at the same time as making an Appeal, then that would be a very extraordinary thing to do while making an Appeal, certainly in the usual sense - all charges and costs are generally suspended while an Appeal has been agreed to, even having only agreed that an Appeal may be heard in future.
Again, the TOCs suggestion that a payment should be made for the very matter that is being Appealed suggests that the word is not being used in the usual and legal sense.
If it is just a poorly named internal complaints procedure, then I guess they can devise and implement just about any policy they want, including the request for payment simultaneously with their 'Appeal' process - which isn't really an Appeal.

In fact, if we try to look for the opportunities for a passenger to make an Appeal in the legal sense, then they would HAVE TO have paid, (otherwise they'd have incurred no loss), and then they'd have to have had a Court Judgement against them. Then they'd at least have something to Appeal against!

So what's my analysis? Well, there seems to be nothing unlawful about the TOCs' request that a passenger pays the UPFN within 10 days AND makes an Appeal simultaneously, but conversely, any passenger who has a strong conviction that the UPFN has not been issued with adequate reason, then I say they should just get on with their 'Appeal' (and not pay). The TOCs' agreement that the UPFN need not be paid couldn't be influenced by whether or not the passenger had paid it or not. That influence would only affect whether there was a repayment to be made, or not.
(The passenger who's just a chancer, trying an appeal on the chance that they'll be lucky will, of course, expose themselves to loosing the appeal AND having not paid and therefore expose themselves to prosecution. That couldn't arise in the course of a legal Appeal where costs would have been suspended).

It would be helpful if the TOCs all agreed to rename the procedure, perhaps as a Request for a Review, or simply, Complaints. But then maybe they do like to presume more authority than they hold - they already like to be both prosecutor and judge in cases of assessing alledged Fare Evasion. The process of the one department sending a suspected Evader a Form to complete with details, which is returned to the same department, who then decide which law they will engage (if any) to prosecute the passenger is abhorrent. (You tell us as much as you can about your journey and then we'll try to find a law which we can use to prosecute you, based on your own evidence - We'll make sure our best lawyers help you to incriminate yourself). So perhaps the TOCs do like to assume judicial authority which they don't posess.
 
Last edited:

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
provided the customer has provided their name and address then no offence is committed if they don't sign it, BTP wouldn't be able to do anything unless they were abusive etc.

I have had a situation where BTP told someone to sign the UPFN or get nicked. Admittedly, they had no ticket at all, and were refusing to pay.

To be honest, I was quite piddled off that BTP didn't nick the guy anyway, as he was going RDG-PAD and had been all attitude until the uniforms turned up, but it was a busy Saturday night and they didn't want the hassle.

Interesting analysis, Dave.
 

RPI

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2010
Messages
3,370
On UFN's there isn't actually any mention of the word "appeal", the word "dispute" is used, with my TOC the UFN disputes aren't dealt with by IPFAS but by RPSS.
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
On UFN's there isn't actually any mention of the word "appeal", the word "dispute" is used, with my TOC the UFN disputes aren't dealt with by IPFAS but by RPSS.

Good point, well presented! :D

"If you wish to dispute your liability to pay this fare, a statement in writing giving a full explanation of your failure to produce a valid ticket or other authority to travel by rail, together with any information as to your journey relevant to that explanation must be sent by post or delivered to the address below so as to arrive within 10 days of you receiving this notice"
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
On UFN's there isn't actually any mention of the word "appeal", the word "dispute" is used, with my TOC the UFN disputes aren't dealt with by IPFAS but by RPSS.
That is helpful. Thanks.

I see that the OP did specifically refer to an 'appeal' and elaborated in post #4 of this thread by a link to the EC's website on the matter, which is explained in these terms:
EC website said:
If I am issued an Unpaid Fare Notice, do I need to pay immediately?

When issued with an Unpaid Fare Notice you have ten days from the date issued to make the full payment to Revenue Protection Support Services (RPSS). Contact details found on the notice.
If you wish to appeal against the Unpaid Fare Notice, you should also do this within ten days of receiving the unpaid fare notice. To appeal against your Unpaid Fare Notice you must do so in writing and send this to:

Revenue Protection Support Services (RPSS), PO Box 89, Portsmouth. PO1 1EG

This appeals service is independent of East Coast Main Line Company Ltd (East Coast) and will consider your appeal based on the facts of the case.

Please note that appealing does not negate your liability to pay the amount owing within ten days.
The word 'appeal', with small 'a', is used repeatedly; I think in a context which sustains my analysis (above).

"If you wish to dispute your liability to pay this fare, a statement in writing giving a full explanation of your failure to produce a valid ticket or other authority to travel by rail, together with any information as to your journey relevant to that explanation must be sent by post or delivered to the address below so as to arrive within 10 days of you receiving this notice"

I don't know which TOCs adopt the 'Appeal' terminology and which don't. Can anyone here help with a comprehensive list of those TOCs who refer to an 'appeal' and those who do not?
 
Last edited:

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
6,064
Location
Sheffield
I think my sole point in this (and other) posts on the subject, is that if a guard on a train is presented with something that a passenger has studied the routeing guides and fare manuals to find, they will
1. possibly be unaware of it
2. probably not be inclined to accept it without documentation (we are a suspicious breed, unfortunately), and
3. issuing a UPFN gives them a chance to refer the whole thing to someone who has got the time to go into it in greater detail and with greater resources than a guard on a train between A and B
If the UPFN causes the passenger a certain amount of hassle in sorting it out as well, such is life (and nobody likes a smartass <D). If they wanted to avoid the hassle, then they could have bought the "normal" ticket that 99.9% of passengers do.

Why should a passenger pay £50 for a 'normal' ticket when they can pay £21 for an 'unusual', but perfectly valid, one to undertake the same journey?

I will be using the latter again this week. I don't see why I should receive any amount of hassle at all.
 

RPI

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2010
Messages
3,370
you and I must have the same employer flamingo....
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
Why should a passenger pay £50 for a 'normal' ticket when they can pay £21 for an 'unusual', but perfectly valid, one to undertake the same journey?

I will be using the latter again this week. I don't see why I should receive any amount of hassle at all.
However, the passengers idea of what is a valid ticket may not be correct - I charged up over ten people yesterday evening (Super-offpeak / Offpeak / split at Didcot when we didn't stop there) ALL of whom insisted that they had a valid ticket, and most of whom said "I've never been charged before" or "I should have been told that when I bought the ticket". one insisted "The man on the platform said it was OK" (she was wrong, I told her it wasn't). Two of them took my name to complain, and one of them wanted a UPFN (untill told that I would sell them a ticket for £14, but the UPFN would be for £30 - they were so certain they were right that they paid <D). I had announced before leaving London, and again when we left and again before arriving at Reading what the restrictions were.

you and I must have the same employer flamingo....
I think we do... ;)
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
17,914
Location
0036
However, the passengers idea of what is a valid ticket may not be correct - I charged up over ten people yesterday evening (Super-offpeak / Offpeak / split at Didcot when we didn't stop there) ALL of whom insisted that they had a valid ticket

I have a small amount of sympathy for them; there are quite a few flows from London with no evening peak restrictions.

But we're going drastically off topic. We've seen that FGW doesn't request payment while an appeal is pending; why does EC?
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
I have a small amount of sympathy for them; there are quite a few flows from London with no evening peak restrictions.

But we're going drastically off topic. We've seen that FGW doesn't request payment while an appeal is pending; why does EC?

If I hadn't announced the restrictions twice before and once after leaving London I might have a bit more sympathy.
 

mickey

Member
Joined
11 Mar 2010
Messages
734
I don't think it's at all right that payment can be demanded even though an appeal has been lodged - it should be put 'on hold' until an outcome is decided.

However, pragmatically, in this situation I think I would send a cheque at the last minute with a letter explaining that the choice of whether to cash it is up to them, but I would rather they didn't until the outcome of the appeal is known. I think at least some of them would rather hang on to it and wait, especially given the cost to them of processing both that one and the refund they would (hopefully!) have to issue later.
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
6,064
Location
Sheffield
However, the passengers idea of what is a valid ticket may not be correct - I charged up over ten people yesterday evening (Super-offpeak / Offpeak / split at Didcot when we didn't stop there) ALL of whom insisted that they had a valid ticket, and most of whom said "I've never been charged before" or "I should have been told that when I bought the ticket". one insisted "The man on the platform said it was OK" (she was wrong, I told her it wasn't). Two of them took my name to complain, and one of them wanted a UPFN (untill told that I would sell them a ticket for £14, but the UPFN would be for £30 - they were so certain they were right that they paid <D). I had announced before leaving London, and again when we left and again before arriving at Reading what the restrictions were.

But that is a completely different scenario. These people did not have valid tickets. Your post to which I replied referred to passengers being caused hassle because the guard could not/would not check the routeing guide.

You will be pleased (I hope;)) to know that I received no hassle with my ticket which cost less than half the cost of the 'normal' fare for the journey made.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top