Updates On The Ex WM 323s at Northern

crosscity · 30 Oct 2025

Liam L said:
323221 has finally returned to Long Marston after it's appearance at the greatest gathering.

Yes, yesterday may be the last time a 323 is seen on the Birmingham Crosscity line.
I call it "the gift that keeps on giving" because there have been numerous sightings of ex-Soho 323's in the West Midlands since the last one ran in service in Birmingham more than a year ago!

29Oct2025. Greatest Gathering. University. 323221 37884 (Ex D6883). [P1230452] by Ray Honke, on Flickr

RailUK Forums

Liam L · 30 Oct 2025

Are the Long Marston ones in 'Cold' or 'Warm' Store? I presume Cold as there no OHLE at Long Marston but I'm not sure what involves 'Warm' storing units.

Razorblades · 30 Oct 2025

Liam L said:
Are the Long Marston ones in 'Cold' or 'Warm' Store? I presume Cold as there no OHLE at Long Marston but I'm not sure what involves 'Warm' storing units.

Making sure that all essential systems are kept in working order so that the trains can be returned to service relatively easily. This involves powering them up, moving them, applying brakes etc.

Cold storing involves condensation, mildew and degradation.

diligentdave · 31 Oct 2025

Liam L said:
Are the Long Marston ones in 'Cold' or 'Warm' Store? I presume Cold as there no OHLE at Long Marston but I'm not sure what involves 'Warm' storing units.

You're kidding? There's plenty of OHLE at Long Marston and they're putting in even more as we speak.

Liam L · 31 Oct 2025

diligentdave said:
You're kidding? There's plenty of OHLE at Long Marston and they're putting in even more as we speak.

Wasn't aware, I'm not familiar with the site at all, just going off photos I've seen from the site

The_Train · 31 Oct 2025

If there is "plenty" of OHLE at Long Marston, they appear to hide it well as most photos and videos I have seen show masses of unwired roads

Starmill · 1 Nov 2025

Razorblades said:
Personally, I think the future is bleak and the fate is sealed for the surplus 323s:

Northern is the only viable home for these otherwise non-standard trains

Porterbrook is actively trying to market their much more lucrative/ modern/ higher book value Class 350/2 fleet

1 + 2 = Cinderella fleet

I wouldn't say the additional pair is impossible yet, there is definitely a need for an increase in cover at Northern while works are underway on other units and in order to support the reliability of the existing diagrams. However after they've been stored for so long it'd be months until they could be transferred, given an exam and then have everything rectified to make them fit for passenger services. Even 34 units is proving not to be sufficient to cover everything.

Beyond that additional pair or for any customer other than Northern then yes I absolutely agree there's no hope.

prod_pep · 1 Nov 2025

There is potentially extra work for any additional 323s as well as cover. The following pre-pandemic services spring to mind as still missing:

The second all-day Chat Moss stopper per hour from Liverpool (this ran to Warrington Bank Quay but would be better served going to Manchester and beyond)
An additional set to provide the enhanced 20-minute frequency on the Hadfield line
The extra Manchester Vic to Preston stopper (previously 319-operated I think; something else may have taken this service's paths?)
EMUs running the Hazel Grove service in full rather than mostly DMUs at present

Some of but not all the above could be filled by 323s returning from training runs.

Could there also be potential for some six-car services on the Manchester to Stoke stopper during the week? Saturdays seem to have 323 pairs at times - e.g. today - and I've seen them packed at peak times.

Starmill · 1 Nov 2025

prod_pep said:
There is potentially extra work for any additional 323s as well as cover. The following pre-pandemic services spring to mind as still missing:

The second all-day Chat Moss stopper per hour from Liverpool (this ran to Warrington Bank Quay but would be better served going to Manchester and beyond)

An additional set to provide the enhanced 20-minute frequency on the Hadfield line

The extra Manchester Vic to Preston stopper (previously 319-operated I think; something else may have taken this service's paths?)

EMUs running the Hazel Grove service in full rather than mostly DMUs at present

Some of but not all the above could be filled by 323s returning from training runs.

Could there also be potential for some six-car services on the Manchester to Stoke stopper during the week? Saturdays seem to have 323 pairs at times - e.g. today - and I've seen them packed at peak times.

None of those are specced in the 'configuration state 2' Manchester Task Force timetable so if they were to return it would be many years before they could be considered.

If subsidy were identified some additional shoulder peak Liverpool Lime Street - Warrington Bank Quay services could probably be resourced, although they would probably be at the expense of the Helsby - Ellesmere Port services in order to release some crew and end the costly route retention on that line.

The six cars doing the shunting impact the CrossCountry at Stoke-on-Trent unfortunately. It can be done today as an exceptional measure, because Network Rail allowed CrossCountry to reinstate over the top of what they'd already offered Northern. It's also done by special agreement during the Christmas season, where the trade off is that if Northern doesn't run the strengthened service, people will be left behind at Macclesfield and end up on the other CrossCountry anyway.

Six cars could go onto the ones that shunt already on weekdays, although six cars don't fit on platforms 11 and 12 at Manchester Piccadilly which is an issue. You can see here: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...1/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=NT

1D53 · 1 Nov 2025

There is also the issue of where to keep any extra 323s. Allerton is full.

Liam L · 1 Nov 2025

1D53 said:
There is also the issue of where to keep any extra 323s. Allerton is full.

What's happened to the fleet being based out of Manchester International Depot?

Starmill · 1 Nov 2025

Liam L said:
What's happened to the fleet being based out of Manchester International Depot?

I think they were only going to do A exams there, although I wouldn't be counting on seeing that even.

RacsoMoquette · 1 Nov 2025

Why are Northern conducting an interior referbishment of the Class 323 fleet previously operated by WMR? The Class 323 fleet is outdated and aging and a fleet of high quality perfectly reliable Class 350s are currently without a home. Does this mean Northern don’t want the Class 350s?

I travelled on Class 323s in October on the Glossop Line on both a original Northern unit and an Ex WMR unit. The latter was in poor condition with extreamly dusty seats and very dim interiors. The lights looked very dated. The Northern unit, was in better condition.

Has the been any recent news regarding Northern taking on the Class 350s? Or do the Class 323s have a bright future with Northern ahead of them.

Starmill · 1 Nov 2025

RacsoMoquette said:
Why are Northern conducting an interior referbishment of the Class 323 fleet previously operated by WMR?

Erm

RacsoMoquette said:
I travelled on Class 323s in October on the Glossop Line on both a original Northern unit and an Ex WMR unit. The latter was in poor condition with extreamly dusty seats and very dim interiors. The lights looked very dated. The Northern unit, was in better condition.

Don't you think you've answered your own question?

Liam L · 1 Nov 2025

RacsoMoquette said:
Why are Northern conducting an interior referbishment of the Class 323 fleet previously operated by WMR? The Class 323 fleet is outdated and aging and a fleet of high quality perfectly reliable Class 350s are currently without a home. Does this mean Northern don’t want the Class 350s?

I travelled on Class 323s in October on the Glossop Line on both a original Northern unit and an Ex WMR unit. The latter was in poor condition with extreamly dusty seats and very dim interiors. The lights looked very dated. The Northern unit, was in better condition.

You sort of explained yourself why the WMR ones need a refurbishment. The units are being refurbished to brought in line with Northern standards. Not sure where the link between 323s and 350/2s has come from as it's pure speculation as to whether Northern are taking the 350 units.

Starmill · 1 Nov 2025

RacsoMoquette said:
Has the been any recent news regarding Northern taking on the Class 350s? Or do the Class 323s have a bright future with Northern ahead of them.

A 350 doesn't fit in the bay platform at Stoke-on-Trent and there are a number of places where two 323s fit but two 350s don't, including terminal platforms and carriage sidings which realistically couldn't be extended. Also apart from the ex TPE staff nearly everyone signs 323s now so there would be enormous costs to train several hundred drivers and again as many conductors. That's not to say it's impossible of course.

M60lad · 2 Nov 2025

Out of interest are there any plans to strengthen the Manchester-Stoke Northern service again during the Christmas period?

jonnyfan · 2 Nov 2025

M60lad said:
Out of interest are there any plans to strengthen the Manchester-Stoke Northern service again during the Christmas period?

Yes, during the duration of the Christmas markets, the services on Saturdays will be strengthened to 6-car 323 operation, STPs are already in the system to allow for the shunting at Stoke-on-Trent.

david l · 2 Nov 2025

M60lad said:
Out of interest are there any plans to strengthen the Manchester-Stoke Northern service again during the Christmas period?

Actually running the booked length services would be good, over 25% short form last period I looked at on North Manchester (whatever that covers these days.........)

Liam L · 15 Nov 2025

317 forever · 16 Nov 2025

This may have been mentioned before, but they still have the destinations in orange at the front, a throwback to their time with WMR.

I therefore know it will be an ex WMR unit even before I see the interior.

Liam L · 16 Nov 2025

317 forever said:
This may have been mentioned before, but they still have the destinations in orange at the front, a throwback to their time with WMR.

I therefore know it will be an ex WMR unit even before I see the interior.

I think I prefer it, much bigger to read compared the smaller text on original Northern sets.

Liam L · 16 Jan 2026

diligentdave · 16 Jan 2026

Liam L said:
First post of 2026, hopefully the planned refurb will happen this year??

List as of: 16/01/2026

323202: In Service | Northern Livery | UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR / Northern Seat Covers | Digital Train upgraded |
323203: In Service | Northern Livery | UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR | Digital Train upgraded |
323205: In Service | Northern Livery | UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR | Digital Train upgraded |
323206: In Service | Northern Livery | UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR | Digital Train upgraded |
323207: In Service | Northern Livery | UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR | Digital Train upgraded |
323208: In Service | Northern Livery UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR | Digital Train upgraded |
323209: In Service | Northern Livery | UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR | Digital Train upgraded |
323210: In Service | Northern Livery | UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR | Digital Train upgraded |
323212: In Service | Northern Livery | UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR | Digital Train upgraded |
323213: In Service | Northern Livery | UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR / Northern Seat Covers | Digital Train upgraded |
323217:In Service | Northern Livery | UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR | Digital Train upgraded |
323218: In Service | Northern Livery | UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR | Digital Train upgraded |
323219: In Service| Northern Livery | UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR | No Digital Train upgrades |
323220: In Service | Northern Livery | UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR | Digital Train upgraded |
323241: In Service | Northern Livery | UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR | Digital Train upgraded |
323242: In Service | Northern Livery | UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR | Digital Train upgraded |
323243: In Service | Northern Livery| UNREFURBISHED - WMR INTERIOR | Digital Train upgraded |

Updates:
As far as I'm aware, 323213 & 323243 has now gained Digital train upgrades. Not sure on 323219 as I can't find anything on it so any updates would be greatly appreciated.

323219 was done last year, just before 323213.

Liam L · 16 Jan 2026

diligentdave said:
323219 was done last year, just before 323213.

Cheers, updated the list

RailKnight786 · 10 Mar 2026

Any news on the refurbs? When they are planning to take place?

Liam L · 11 Mar 2026

RailKnight786 said:
Any news on the refurbs? When they are planning to take place?

No update, but supposedly it will happen as part of a C6 exam

Updates On The Ex WM 323s at Northern

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member