"Transforming Rail in Wales" Interview with TFW CEO

[Bevan Price]

Switch on the battery for hybrid and it has 1700 hp, same as a Type 3 then factor in the abs/traction control. Seems alot of people are hating on the 93 without subjectively asking what it can actually do.

Never said anything about hating them. But even 1700 hp will not match the performance needed to match most current schedues whilst hauling a 5x Mark4 set +DVT.

Only in electric mode will they be able to equal Class 67 performance between Crewe & Manchester.

 

[Harlequinuk]

Put it this way, the rating on diesel is 1,205hp, with battery providing another 535hp - so total 1,740hp, or Class 37 equivalent. That's only until the Duracells run out (which they undoubtedly would on that route), at which point you are back to less than a Class 25. But it isn't 1975 any more and not steam heated, so from that deduct train supply. You are now in haulage capacity of around the same as a single Class 20. No chance of meeting sectional running times vs a 3,200hp Class 67.

And do you have any proof of that...?

New Class 93 tri-modes continue UK testing

The two Stadler Class 93 locomotives now in the UK have moved to the Rail Innovation and Development Centre, for the next stage of their testing.

www.railmagazine.com

 

[43096]

New Class 93 tri-modes continue UK testing

The two Stadler Class 93 locomotives now in the UK have moved to the Rail Innovation and Development Centre, for the next stage of their testing.

www.railmagazine.com

Those are Mark 3s in the photo, not Mark 4s. Try again.

 

[43096]

Switch on the battery for hybrid and it has 1700 hp, same as a Type 3 then factor in the abs/traction control.

Until the batteries run out. The improved traction control can only do so much - they cannot overcome the fundamental lack of power.

Seems alot of people are hating on the 93 without subjectively asking what it can actually do.

No one is hating on the 93s. They are pointing out the limitations of its specification. However, you (and you are not the only one) seem to be attributing mythical properties to the 93 that defy the laws of physics.

 

[s491]

New Class 93 tri-modes continue UK testing

The two Stadler Class 93 locomotives now in the UK have moved to the Rail Innovation and Development Centre, for the next stage of their testing.

www.railmagazine.com

The picture on the Rail link seems to show Mk3's.....not Mk4's as you originally posted?

 

[Harlequinuk]

The picture on the Rail link seems to show Mk3's.....not Mk4's as you originally posted?

I took that link from an earlier thread along with this video

, assumed it was mk4s

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2025 ==

Until the batteries run out. The improved traction control can only do so much - they cannot overcome the fundamental lack of power.

No one is hating on the 93s. They are pointing out the limitations of its specification. However, you (and you are not the only one) seem to be attributing mythical properties to the 93 that defy the laws of physics.

And you are denying how hybrid technology actually works in 2025. This isnt 2000`s anymore, its 25 years later, just ask Hitachi and the 802/2 test.

 

[43096]

And you are denying how hybrid technology actually works in 2025. This isnt 2000`s anymore, its 25 years later, just ask Hitachi and the 802/2 test.

I’d suggest you have a look at the facts. The traction batteries on the 93 have a capacity of 80kWh. That’s enough for 12 minutes at full power. That’s it.

So your mythical 93 that defies the laws of physics, after 12 minutes at full 1,740hp (less train supply) becomes a 1,205hp (less train supply) loco; against the current 3,200hp (less train supply). I don’t care how good the traction control is, it will not, cannot cover a 2,000hp reduction in available power.

 

[The exile]

Class 27 used to run around Scotland on frieght or passenger , and has the same power on Diesel (Type 2 ) @ 1200 hp. Put on the hybrid battery and your up to type 3 power, same as a Class 33. So it has enough

The 27s weren’t also supplying hotel power to the train (at least not on their own).

 

[s491]

I took that link from an earlier thread along with this video

, assumed it was mk4s

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2025 ==



And you are denying how hybrid technology actually works in 2025. This isnt 2000`s anymore, its 25 years later, just ask Hitachi and the 802/2 test.

Strangely, the greatest success and pioneer in railway hybrid technology in the UK was 43089 during its time on the NMT as Hayabusa in 2007/8 which was 18 years ago. But it was still a 2250 hp power car. Not suddenly 3000 hp because it has some batteries. The point 43096 is making is that once the batteries have been drained of juice you're down to just the engine if the batteries haven't had a time to charge, and if you're still accelerating and using the "hotel power" (ETS) the batteries will have to wait for their top up....... There is no magic involved - you only get what power is available. Hybrid doesn't suddenly break the laws of physics.

 

[HSTEd]

Strangely, the greatest success and pioneer in railway hybrid technology in the UK was 43089 during its time on the NMT as Hayabusa in 2007/8 which was 18 years ago. But it was still a 2250 hp power car. Not suddenly 3000 hp because it has some batteries. The point 43096 is making is that once the batteries have been drained of juice you're down to just the engine if the batteries haven't had a time to charge, and if you're still accelerating and using the "hotel power" (ETS) the batteries will have to wait for their top up....... There is no magic involved - you only get what power is available. Hybrid doesn't suddenly break the laws of physics.

What is the actual duty cycle of a train diesel engine?

If the train does not run flat out all the time it is not necessarily true that the batteries will be exhausted. A hybrid allows average power used by the train to approach the peak power of the onboard engine, on a long route.

EDIT:

This report suggests that a passenger diesel train only spends 44% of the time in the top traction notch. 23% is spent at idle! (page 26/167). This figure excludes turnaround times at termini.

 

[Harlequinuk]

I’d suggest you have a look at the facts. The traction batteries on the 93 have a capacity of 80kWh. That’s enough for 12 minutes at full power. That’s it.

So your mythical 93 that defies the laws of physics, after 12 minutes at full 1,740hp (less train supply) becomes a 1,205hp (less train supply) loco; against the current 3,200hp (less train supply). I don’t care how good the traction control is, it will not, cannot cover a 2,000hp reduction in available power.

Sp Stadler state is a 400kw battery not 80

https://www.stadlerrail.com/api/docs/x/1ab17d5502/tri-mode-class93-rog-en.pdf

and both Stadler and ROG have both said pure battery ops is for last mile only.

With the facts in mind, everything else you have said therefore is incorrect, especially with the out of date understanding of Hybrid technology. Again this isnt the 2000`s. anymore

 

[43096]

Sp Stadler state is a 400kw battery not 80

You clearly do not understand. Battery output is 400kW at any one time. Battery capacity as I stated is 80kWh (ie kW hours). That is how I got my 12 minutes: 80 x 60 (minutes) = 4,800 kW minutes. Divide by 400kW is 12 minutes at full power.

With the facts in mind, everything else you have said therefore is incorrect, especially with the out of date understanding of Hybrid technology. Again this isnt the 2000`s. anymore

What I have said is correct.

 

[Krokodil]

Sp Stadler state is a 400kw battery not 80

400kW output of an 80kWh  capacity battery is 12 minutes use. It's designed to give the power from the diesel engine a brief boost when accelerating.

 

[s491]

Sp Stadler state is a 400kw battery not 80

https://www.stadlerrail.com/api/docs/x/1ab17d5502/tri-mode-class93-rog-en.pdf

and both Stadler and ROG have both said pure battery ops is for last mile only.

With the facts in mind, everything else you have said therefore is incorrect, especially with the out of date understanding of Hybrid technology. Again this isnt the 2000`s. anymore

It is you that are wrong but alas you seem incapable of understanding battery specifications which is fairly fundamental when it comes to hybrid technology. I don't know what this "it isn't the 2000's anymore" line you keep stating has anything to do with it. Battery capacity has been specified as such since the battery's invention.

 

[tfw756rider]

(The Mark 4s are) about to go in to start a life extension overhaul and some quite major component replacement so they're going nowhere yet. Believe around 2035-2037 is the expected life span for the coaches. Although that does push them to nearly 50, the scope for the overhaul is pretty extensive.
One rake is already receiving some electrical and lighting upgrades to replace obsolete components.

Is the constant hum/buzz inside being got rid of?

 

[sd0733]

Is the constant hum/buzz inside being got rid of?

No that's still present although sitting nearer the control (toilet) end of a coach lessens how much you can hear of it.

The main visible change is the whiter lighting, the vestibules in particular are now much brighter than previously.

 

[tfw756rider]

No that's still present although sitting nearer the control (toilet) end of a coach lessens how much you can hear of it.

Ah fair enough, thanks.

The main visible change is the whiter lighting, the vestibules in particular are now much brighter than previously.

Conversion from fluorescent to LED I'm guessing? (Would make sense, as the tubes stopped being made in 2023).

 

[sd0733]

Ah fair enough, thanks.


Conversion from fluorescent to LED I'm guessing? (Would make sense, as the tubes stopped being made in 2023).

Yes LED conversion throughout.

 

[tfw756rider]

Yes LED conversion throughout.

Ah, thanks.