Tram-train concept and technical discussion

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This subject appears to appear upon numerous threads, so I feel that one master thread should be created to allow all discussions on this particular mode of transport to appear in the same place.

 

[anthony263]

Not a bad idea.

The trial in Rotherham looks to be a good idea and I do hope everything goes to plan with it. This idea has worked in europe for years so I am not too surprised that the DFT are deciding that we should have a go ourselves.

I can think of a few places where such a system could work:

The Cardiff Valleys being an example, the Cardiff Business Partnerhsip suggested a 15 minutely service between Coryton and Cardiff bay with tram's running on street to Roath Basin and a new park & ride dvelopment at Northern Avenue just next to Junction 32 on the M4.

The Cardiff Valley circle line idea was ok although I think there are still a lof of questions about how it would work at the northern end between Treharris and Quakers Yard/Merthyr Vale.

Tram-Trains again could also work in many other cities: Swansea, Bristol, Liverpool and Manchester are excellent choices with the latter already having the Metrolink.

Surprised Boris or TFL havent suggested such an idea for London perhaps as part of the London Tramlink

 

[edwin_m]

Trams are more expensive per passenger carried than trains, so a simple replacement of an existing service is unlikely to be worthwhile. It needs some other benefit such as accessing an important destination that trains can't get to or allowing more frequent services by bypassing a bottleneck on the rail network. These benefits require operation in "tram mode" on some part of the route, so either a connection to an existing tramway, conversion of a railway to a tramway if it has no other rail use, or a business case strong enough to justify building some new tramway.

 

[D365]

Surprised Boris or TfL haven't suggested such an idea for London perhaps as part of the London Tramlink

Presumably because Tramlink runs in a predominantly third/fourth rail mainline electrification region.

Shame the St. Albans Abbey Line tram-train proposal has ground to a halt, though if anyone wishes to discuss it further, the respective thread is still open... There exist any other places where this system could find use though.

 

[edwin_m]

London isn't great tram-train territory primarily because most routes run very long trains and the trams would struggle to carry that number of people. This probably applies even to routes like Caterham and Tattenham Corner which at first glance would be good candidates to attach to Tramlink.

If the Uxbridge Road tram had gone ahead them maybe it could have taken in the Greenford branch. And if the route from Old Oak to Northolt is indeed to be severed but left largely vacant by HS2 perhaps there is scope for light rail here?

 

[bluenoxid]

I am fairly supportive of the opportunity to introduce Tram Trains to the Blackpool South Branch. I think that it offers a real opportunity for these fairly poorly connected points with an hourly service to get really good connections to a station that offers similar connections to Preston (Blackpool North).

I just don't get any proposal to run tram trains on the Harrogate line. I think some people perceive Leeds Bradford as a mega airport but it really isn't that major. If it wants a train link, it should pay for one like Stobart have done.

Personally, I would improve the service on the Harrogate line, then extend the car park buses to cover Horsforth.

 

[SuperOwl86]

Looking forward to see how this goes and hoping that it goes well, I think this is the only way that Sheffield's tram network will expand in the future.

 

[WestRiding]

has any work outside actually been done yet1? 2015 is rather hopeful. regarding rotherham/sheffield.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Have there been any recent trials project discussions where a trials commencement date of 2016 has been suggested instead of the original 2015 date for these ?

 

[eastwestdivide]

On Rotherham/Sheffield, no work on the ground that I could see, and I've been close to most of publicly-visible parts of the route in the last few weeks.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think I read that the vehicles for the tram-train pilot are going to have dual-voltage capability. Is that correct? Also, are they going to be low-floor or high-floor?

If the answers to my questions are "yes" and "low-floor" they sound ideal for my idea of serving the two HOWL stations on the Swansea District Line if a direct link to Gowerton is ever built to allow HOWL trains to avoid Llanelli.

 

[anthony263]

I think I read that the vehicles for the tram-train pilot are going to have dual-voltage capability. Is that correct? Also, are they going to be low-floor or high-floor?

If the answers to my questions are "yes" and "low-floor" they sound ideal for my idea of serving the two HOWL stations on the Swansea District Line if a direct link to Gowerton is ever built to allow HOWL trains to avoid Llanelli.

To Answer your questions

1.) Yes they are dual voltage incase the mainline route is electrified at 25kv in teh near future.
2.) Yes low floor likethe current trams especially since some of the tram-train vehicles will be used to provide additional capacity on the existing supertram network.

Tramm-trains will be good for certain routes around Swansea especially if a network local network is ever given the go ahead, of course tram-trains would be easier to run through gowerton as they can use existing roads where possible like conventional trams.

The only issue being the trackbed through the Clyne Valley which is a cycle path (you will have some issue's trying to get that re-opened as a tramway with the cyclists playing hell)

 

[northwichcat]

EDIT2: Was rather confused for a moment, thought I'd posted in the wrong thread- they were merged while I was writing this post!

Confused me as well. Really it's debatable whether I should have posted the original thread under light rail or under national rail given it's talking about the future of quite a few heavy rail routes and it doesn't say anywhere the tram-trains would be part of Metrolink or not part of Metrolink. I understand the South Yorks tram-train was supposed to be Northern Rail operating but there were issues that cropped up with that so for simplicity Stagecoach Supertram have been given responsibility for the trial.

 

[edwin_m]

Some of the Kalrsruhe tram-trains had "regio-bistros" and toilets - the operator considered that toilets were essential on any unit that had a bistro. However I don't think they were successful and the few I saw had both bistro and toilet locked out of use.

The minimum size for a dual-voltage tram-train is about 37m long, in order to make space for the transformer etc. A DC-only tram-train could be very similar to a tram. However particularly with a high floor vehicle there is a lot of flexibility in regard to interior fit-out.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why cannot the official Tram-train trials in the Sheffield/Rotherham area take place and be evaluated first, without all this unseemly speculation taking place. Do forward planning by all means, but keep the publicity profile given to this at a low level at the current time.

 

[edwin_m]

Why cannot the official Tram-train trials in the Sheffield/Rotherham area take place and be evaluated first, without all this unseemly speculation taking place. Do forward planning by all means, but keep the publicity profile given to this at a low level at the current time.

Given the time taken to deliver projects in the UK, I think it's entirely reasonable to plan ahead so that projects can proceed if and when the tram-train pilot scheme proves the concept (bearing in mind that this pilot has slipped back several times). And in a democracy it seems equally reasonable that those proposals are given an appropriate level of publicity so that people who may be affected can have their say. At this stage the publicity is at a low level - a document slipped onto the TfGM website is hardly a high profile and outside the likes of this forum I don't see a heated debate raging in the streets of Manchester (though the Literary and Philosophical Society seemed very interested when I presented them the concept a couple of years back).

If the Northern replacement franchise is let without priced options for the enhancements that TfGM consider likely to happen, then those enhancements either have to be made more expensively as franchise variations or are deferred until the end of the franchise period.

 

[Greybeard33]

Railway-technology.com has an interview with David Crosbee of the Institute of Railway Research about the wheel profile design for the Sheffield tram-train.

The Tram-Train vehicles have to be designed to work with both types of infrastructure. They must work on the grooved rails within the street tram network and also be able to interact correctly with switch and crossing equipment as well as check rails on the mainline track. The wheel profile design was therefore important, since we had to ensure it could cope with street rails and heavy rail tracks.

One of the key elements of the [Manchester Metrolink] tram wheel design is that the flangeback has a step in it and we've incorporated that into our wheel design.

We carried out design iterations of the wheel profile to optimise the contact conditions; this gives us the best design compromise for successful operation on both Sheffield tram and Network Rail tracks.

Next, we determined the dynamic behaviour of the vehicle and conducted stability analysis to ensure that the design of the new profile doesn't impact on the risk of vehicle instability, known as 'hunting'.

The wheel design work was complicated by the very different rail head shapes of the two systems; the Sheffield Supertram network has a very flat rail head profile, while the worn Network Rail sections typically have a much smaller effective rail head shape. This necessitated compromise in the wheel and tread design, with significant simulation work being carried out to optimise the new wheel profile shape.
This allowed wheel-rail contact stress and wear rates to be minimised on both systems, while also maintaining safety against derailment.

We've submitted our design to the Tram-Train project team for scrutiny and in time that will get submitted to the Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB) for approval, because it's a non-standard wheel profile, it has to be approved to make sure it is safe to run on Network Rail. Vossloh is also using the profile for optimising its suspension and once the wheel design has been approved by RSSB, the plan is that services will start at the beginning of 2016.

'Hunting', and the resultant track wear pattern, is causing on-going ride quality issues on the Manchester Metrolink Altrincham and Bury lines.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am pleased to see that matters that have occurred upon parts of the Manchester Metrolink system have been noted in that report.

 

[edwin_m]

The same people were called in by TfGM to report on the wheel profile issues for Metrolink. I guess we won't know how successful they were until all the T68s have gone and enough time has elapsed to iron out the track wear they are accused of causing.

 

[Polo Mint]

What I don't understand is why tram vehicles could not have been created with the same type of wheels and track as heavy rail. This would mean that train lines could be converted to tram lines easily, or reversed if in the long term it didn't make any sense. It would also mean that trams and trains could use the same track.

 

[Greybeard33]

What I don't understand is why tram vehicles could not have been created with the same type of wheels and track as heavy rail. This would mean that train lines could be converted to tram lines easily, or reversed if in the long term it didn't make any sense. It would also mean that trams and trains could use the same track.

Technically trams could have heavy rail wheel profiles, but then the grooved rail used on street would have to have a wider and deeper groove than normal tram rails. This would be more hazardous to other road users, particularly cyclists.